Never Discussed: Lion’s Tail / Wild Dagga Safe for Sulcata?

[bigsulcata]

Hello!

I’m new to the forums, but have had my Sulcata for almost 20 years. She’s a pretty big girl and loves to roam. I recently moved to a new house and the yard has all safe plants for Sulcatas except there is one flower bush I cannot find any information on the internet about its health for a tortoise. Has anyone had experience with this bush or know any more information about toxicity?

The flower bush in question is Leonotis leonurus, also known as lion's tail, lion’s ear, and wild dagga. From wikipedia, it’s a plant species in the mint family. The plant is a broadleaf evergreen large shrub native to South Africa, where it is very common. It is also smoked by some tribes for slight psychoactive effects too.


There is only one bush in the yard and she will be roaming around that area a lot, so I want to make sure the plant is not toxic for her at all. It grows a lot of flowers in the summer, but it doesn’t shed much.

Thanks in advance for any help. Looking forward to talking more on the site!

Best,
Mike

 

[TammyJ]

I don't know it. But welcome, and can we see pictures of your tortoise? Maybe @Tom knows that plant.

 

[Tom]

I don’t know that one. Best to simply remove it and not take the risk.

 

[bigsulcata]

I don’t know that one. Best to simply remove it and not take the risk.

Problem is that the house is also owned by another friend and theyre fond of the plant, so if I can find any info on it that would be best. Since it’s in the mint family ai was thinking there’s a good chance of it being safe

 

[wellington]

Problem is that the house is also owned by another friend and theyre fond of the plant, so if I can find any info on it that would be best. Since it’s in the mint family ai was thinking there’s a good chance of it being safe

Can you transplant it too an area the tortoise can't get too? That way the tort is safe Incase the plant isn't and your friend gets to enjoy having the plant.

 

[bigsulcata]

I don’t know that one. Best to simply remove it and not take the risk.

I don’t know that one. Best to simply remove it and not take the risk.

I don’t know that one. Best to simply remove it and not take the risk.

Can you transplant it too an area the tortoise can't get too? That way the tort is safe Incase the plant isn't and your friend gets to enjoy having the plant.

That could be a viable option. I’ll have to speak to my gardener about the possibility. But for now I’m super intrigued about this plant since there doesnt seem to be any information on it. Anyone know how I could go about looking? Maybe I should research what compounds/nutrition are in the plant?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

There is not much information on this plant, especially its nutritional value. Most of the works I've found are centered around its antioxidant properties and effects on nervous system. Like this one: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13205-020-2126-5 (I didn't read it! That's too much biochemistry for me).
Maybe @Yvonne G or @RosemaryDW know more about it. I'm always impressed by your knowledge on such topics.

 

[Tom]

Problem is that the house is also owned by another friend and theyre fond of the plant, so if I can find any info on it that would be best. Since it’s in the mint family ai was thinking there’s a good chance of it being safe

Tortoises die from eating toxic plants on a regular basis. We see cases here on the forum and my vet friends deal with this in their practices frequently.

We can guess all day long, but no one knows for sure. Are you wiling to risk your tortoise's life for the plant? Maybe it is safe and harmless, but may be it isn't. Maybe the tortoise won't try to eat it, or maybe one day it does. Its a gamble. A gamble I wouldn't take.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Tom, I agree with you. Many points in your care sheets are about ditching unneccessary, but risky things and doing what's safe. Like removing sand, moss or ramped bowls.

I think OP agreed not to feed this plant to tortoise and moving it out of reach. So it's more of an academic interest and it could be helpful for owners from some exotic locations, where it's easier to find opuntia, than dandelion

 

[bigsulcata]

Tom, I agree with you. Many points in your care sheets are about ditching unneccessary, but risky things and doing what's safe. Like removing sand, moss or ramped bowls.

I think OP agreed not to feed this plant to tortoise and moving it out of reach. So it's more of an academic interest and it could be helpful for owners from some exotic locations, where it's easier to find opuntia, than dandelion

Thanks for clarifying for me. It definitely is more of an academic interest and hope it could be helpful to others if someone sheds light on this plant.

 

[bigsulcata]

Tortoises die from eating toxic plants on a regular basis. We see cases here on the forum and my vet friends deal with this in their practices frequently.

We can guess all day long, but no one knows for sure. Are you wiling to risk your tortoise's life for the plant? Maybe it is safe and harmless, but may be it isn't. Maybe the tortoise won't try to eat it, or maybe one day it does. Its a gamble. A gamble I wouldn't take.

Definitely not looking for any guesses. As Alex pointed out, I’m moreso curious and interested in learning about this plant I came across that happened to be indigenous to the Sulcata species’ home. I’ve had my sully for quite some time so this isn’t my first rodeo, but I appreciate the concern

 

[RosemaryDW]

There is not much information on this plant, especially its nutritional value. Most of the works I've found are centered around its antioxidant properties and effects on nervous system. Like this one: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13205-020-2126-5 (I didn't read it! That's too much biochemistry for me).
Maybe @Yvonne G or @RosemaryDW know more about it. I'm always impressed by your knowledge on such topics.

Well, it's a sage and thus in my mind not likely to do much harm to many tortoises, nor very interesting due to the strong scent. my Russian completely ignores the three types in our yard. But... in the few cases of food harm we see mentioned in this forum* they seem to be about African tortoises. It's a beautiful, tough plant that I'd keep it in my Russian's yard but I don't think I'd leave it around a sulcata. Sorry.

*The article about a Herman's dying from eating buttercups is terribly researched and flat wrong; buttercups are a common food in the natural diet. I will die on this hill!

 

[RosemaryDW]

Oh, just realized OP is in California where we see this beautiful plant all the time. I feel your pain at the idea of pulling it.

Many known sages are safe (I actually can't think of any that aren't) but this one is native to an area we don't know much about and again, yours is a sulcata. Africa is a huge continent and this plant doesn't grow near sulcata habitat.

 

[bigsulcata]

Oh, just realized OP is in California where we see this beautiful plant all the time. I feel your pain at the idea of pulling it.

Many known sages are safe (I actually can't think of any that aren't) but this one is native to an area we don't know much about and again, yours is a sulcata. Africa is a huge continent and this plant doesn't grow near sulcata habitat.

Hm! This is interesting. And thank you so much for your thoughtful replies. But what makes you think it’s a sage? The only sage I can think of is Jerusalem Sage (Phlomis fruticosa) which does look similar but does not have orange flowers like Lion's Tail (Leonotis leonurus) which is from South Africa and looks the most like my plant.

 

[RosemaryDW]

Because it is in the lamiaceae plant family, which includes the sages, mints and dead nettles. The flowers can be so many different colors: white, pink, purple, yellow! Jerusalem sage is actually a really good one to compare it to; a very tall plant with intermediate flowers on distinct stalks. Can you see how similar the flowers are, and the green parts one the bottom of each flower? These are a little rounder and "fluffier" but overall very similar. Track down some white sage in a dry garden or on a hillside in your area and you'll notice it there eventually as well.




But you could compare it to a much smaller mint or an oregano when they are flowering and the flower spikes have gotten long. You can also see it in marjoram and thyme once the stems really grow out: bunched flowers appearing at intervals along the stem growth. It's obvious, once you've spent a loooong time looking at this plant family lol. Here in California we have tons of different sages of all sizes, mostly with purple flowers. Quite a few of them have psychoactive effects—ever seen anyone clear a room of bad vibes with a white sage smudge stick? Not a big deal to me; even if I thought it was problematic my Russian would have to be very hungry to eat something with such a strong scent.

My question here as to whether this sage is "safe" for a sulcata, simply because it's unfamiliar to me and sulcatas and aldabras are the only tortoises I've seen here with reported injuries or deaths that are clearly food related. Even those have all been tied to bulb plants such as tulips or garlics. I wouldn't hesitate to keep it around my Russian or another testudo tortoises but unless I saw a long-time owner or breeder saying they successfully feed it to or leave it around a sulcata I wouldn't in abundance of caution. I'll feed my Russian tons of things; I'm not at all a cautious feeder. If I had spent any time with a sulcata maybe I'd feel differently about this plant.

Ultimately only you can decide what is right for your tortoise.

 

[bigsulcata]

Because it is in the lamiaceae plant family, which includes the sages, mints and dead nettles. The flowers can be so many different colors: white, pink, purple, yellow! Jerusalem sage is actually a really good one to compare it to; a very tall plant with intermediate flowers on distinct stalks. Can you see how similar the flowers are, and the green parts one the bottom of each flower? These are a little rounder and "fluffier" but overall very similar. Track down some white sage in a dry garden or on a hillside in your area and you'll notice it there eventually as well.


View attachment 363553

But you could compare it to a much smaller mint or an oregano when they are flowering and the flower spikes have gotten long. You can also see it in marjoram and thyme once the stems really grow out: bunched flowers appearing at intervals along the stem growth. It's obvious, once you've spent a loooong time looking at this plant family lol. Here in California we have tons of different sages of all sizes, mostly with purple flowers. Quite a few of them have psychoactive effects—ever seen anyone clear a room of bad vibes with a white sage smudge stick? Not a big deal to me; even if I thought it was problematic my Russian would have to be very hungry to eat something with such a strong scent.

My question here as to whether this sage is "safe" for a sulcata, simply because it's unfamiliar to me and sulcatas and aldabras are the only tortoises I've seen here with reported injuries or deaths that are clearly food related. Even those have all been tied to bulb plants such as tulips or garlics. I wouldn't hesitate to keep it around my Russian or another testudo tortoises but unless I saw a long-time owner or breeder saying they successfully feed it to or leave it around a sulcata I wouldn't in abundance of caution. I'll feed my Russian tons of things; I'm not at all a cautious feeder. If I had spent any time with a sulcata maybe I'd feel differently about this plant.

Ultimately only you can decide what is right for your tortoise.

Thank you so much for taking the time to lay out your experience. Super interesting how my particular plant is quite unstudied and how it could be considered a sage or mint. I will have to move it away from her if I’m going to feel safe since I haven’t gotten a concrete reason to consider it safe. I’m hoping this thread will continue to bring more knowledge to the conversation around this plant.

 

[MenagerieGrl]

Thank you so much for taking the time to lay out your experience. Super interesting how my particular plant is quite unstudied and how it could be considered a sage or mint. I will have to move it away from her if I’m going to feel safe since I haven’t gotten a concrete reason to consider it safe. I’m hoping this thread will continue to bring more knowledge to the conversation around this plant.

Or, depending on the size of your sulcata, a bullet proof barrier...Cinder/block/foundation stake, 2x12/2x4 stakes...I have the same plant, it's below a front window, and thus very beautiful from inside and out.
In my front yard, not my backyard sulcata area...

 

[bigsulcata]

I emailed the tortoisetable a while ago and got a response from someone on the topic of this plant. This is their response:

“Leonotis leonurus is known to have mildly psychoactive, euphoric calming effects in people who brewed it as tea or smoked dried leaves and flowers. It has been illegal (declared a Schedule 1 drug) in Latvia and Poland since 2009 when it became a popular smoking alternative to tobacco and cannibis. Low doses given to rats produced no toxic effects, but very high doses showed toxic effects on internal organs and red and white blood cells (causing some deaths). But do remember these were very high doses of a concentrated substance. The property in the plant causing these effects is Leonurine, an alkaloid that produces neuroprotective and anti-inflammatory effects and is currently being researched for use in treating Parkinson's, Alzheimers, and some strokes.

So that is the scientific research, and I have seen advice that because it is mildly psychoactive you shouldn't have it growing near where your dogs or cats might encounter it. However, I can find no studies on reptiles.”

Just adding this to the thread to provide more research info on the plant from a trustworthy resource.

 

[Jonah25]

Problem is that the house is also owned by another friend and theyre fond of the plant, so if I can find any info on it that would be best. Since it’s in the mint family ai was thinking there’s a good chance of it being safe

You could try to block it off with some sort of fencing like chicken wire so they can’t get to it

 

[bigsulcata]

I emailed the tortoisetable a while ago and got a response from someone on the topic of this plant. This is their response:

“Leonotis leonurus is known to have mildly psychoactive, euphoric calming effects in people who brewed it as tea or smoked dried leaves and flowers. It has been illegal (declared a Schedule 1 drug) in Latvia and Poland since 2009 when it became a popular smoking alternative to tobacco and cannibis. Low doses given to rats produced no toxic effects, but very high doses showed toxic effects on internal organs and red and white blood cells (causing some deaths). But do remember these were very high doses of a concentrated substance. The property in the plant causing these effects is Leonurine, an alkaloid that produces neuroprotective and anti-inflammatory effects and is currently being researched for use in treating Parkinson's, Alzheimers, and some strokes.

So that is the scientific research, and I have seen advice that because it is mildly psychoactive you shouldn't have it growing near where your dogs or cats might encounter it. However, I can find no studies on reptiles.”

Just adding this to the thread to provide more research info on the plant from a trustworthy resource.

They also added on :

“The toxicity that was recorded in the scientific studies I looked at mainly tested really high doses of extracts of the plant, and I saw some studies that observed the effects on cattle of eating the plant in their pastures and no toxicity was found. Here are some of the articles I looked at

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13205-020-2126-5
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26292023/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20194574/
https://etd.uwc.ac.za/handle/11394/8815

From what I've read, if she eats a good quantity of the plant, she might get a little high or calm, but even that is unlikely, as there are no studies of the psychoactive effect of the plant on reptiles.



Also, technically Leonotis and Sage are related, but not really closely related. Leonotis is a genus in the Lamiaceae family of plants, and Sage (Salvia) is also a genus in the Lamiaceae botanical family. But there are 236 genera (genuses) in the Lamiaceae family, covering around 7,000 species. So although they are both in that family, and therefore related, that family also contains lavender, mint, basil, rosemary, catnip, mint, deadnettle, and the teak tree. Most of the plants in the Lamiaceae are fairly safe, and most are aromatic, but some do have toxic or antinutritional properties, so it's important to consider each plant on its own latin name.”