New Pyramiding Info

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Tom

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The title of this thread is a bit misleading. I don't intend to enlighten you all with my vast and growing knowledge of this subject. Quite the contrary, I hope that you all can enlighten me. Let me explain:

Pyramiding is one of those mysteries that may never be entirely solved, but that won't stop me from trying. I view this as a giant puzzle. I've been searching for pieces since the early nineties, and I've found a few, but not enough to really see the picture yet. Part of the problem is that nobody knows how many pieces there are. I'd like to share what I've figured out and observed. Maybe I've got some pieces that will fit with somebody else's and it will all start to make more sense.

I have been extremely frustrated by this for nearly 20 years. I have been dealing with pyramiding as pet shop employee since the late 80's. I always assumed the people were doing something wrong because I had read the books and I knew everything there was to know. Of course, I had never actually raised a hatchling. In 1993 I got my first sulcata hatchling and even though I did just what the books and experts said, he pyramided. Not bad, but some. He was very healthy and active, but pyramided. I got Scooter and Burt(at first I thought it was Bertha) in 1998. Now I had learned more about proper diet and care. I was on the cutting edge. I fed more grasses and weeds and less store bought, "wet" food. I also fed much smaller quantities and occasionally skipped a day. Their enclosures were huge and very well heated. They got loads of direct sunshine. They still pyramided. The common knowledge at the time said keep them on dry substrate, because they are a desert species and they'll get a respiratory infection like all those desert tortoises that are inappropriately housed near the beach, if you don't. Even back then I wondered how you could live in a humid area and have a healthy, respiratory-disease free sulcata. I did my best for them, but I knew it had nothing to do with diet, as all of mine were fed a great diet in reasonably small quantities. My torts are all pretty undersize for their age, in fact, because I believed that growing too fast was a contributing factor to pyramiding. Fast forward to 2007. I read the Fife brothers Leopard Tortoise book and things started making some sense. They introduced(at least to me), the concept of a humid hide box. Of course, babies hide in humid burrows or plant root balls in the wild. They're hardly ever above ground in the dry heat. This was a valuable puzzle piece.

I went and got another hatchling, Daisy, from a friend. She had already started pyramiding pretty bad at only three months when I got her. I set her up on sani-chips, but with a good size humid hide box. Months went by and no change. She continued to pyramid. I continually upped the moisture content, until it was wet in the box, while watching for shell rot or respiratory signs like a hawk. No change. After a few months of this, I switched her into a large horse trough with orchid coir mixed with coco fiber as a substrate and kept that AND the hide box wet. I covered most of the top, just leaving enough room for her light fixture to get in. She's been like that for several months now and no change. Still pyramiding. I pull her out of there for a soak, sunshine and drying for an hour or two almost every day. I'm being very careful with this as far as her health goes. She's very happy, healthy and active. Her shell is rock hard, her eyes are clear, her appetite is great, she does great poops during her soaks, but still no change in the pyramiding.

Here's my main premise based on my experiences over the last 30 years: Pyramiding is caused by growth in the absence of enough humidity.

I think diet, sun, exercise, calcium/d3, enclosure size and all the other purported factors have a secondary, if any, role. For example; food. More food, or more protein, causes more growth. So with inadequate humidity, an overfed or improperly fed tortoise will pyramid MORE than one who's fed properly. But the properly fed one will still pyramid.

Let me share a few observations. My job takes me all over the country and the world. Whenever I go out of town, I always like to check out the local pet shops and animal parks. On a recent job in New Orleans it took me until my sixth pet shop to find a pyramided tort. Most of the kids in the pet shops didn't even know what pyramiding was. In contrast, it would be unusual to see a CH/CR tortoise in a Southern CA pet shop that wasn't pyramided. The one pyramided tortoise in New orleans had been there since it was a hatchling. It was now nine months old, very big, housed on dry grass-pellet bedding, with an incandescent bulb, in an air conditioned store. Most people there raise their babies outside since the weather is so favorable year round. Well, if you've never been there, let me tell you... its humid. Very humid all the time. Same for South Florida and no pyramiding there either. It didn't matter what they were fed, how they were housed, or what, if any, supplementation was used. If they had access to the outside air, they just didn't pyramid.

So how come Daisy won't stop pyramiding, now that she's obviously being kept humid enough? Here comes the second part of my theory.

I've seen small wild caught torts grow up side by side with captives and the wild ones stay smooth, while the captives continue pyramiding. This never made sense to me. Same diet, same care, same heat and humidity, same everything, but you couldn't make the wild one pyramid and you couldn't stop the captive raised one. It seems that, how they are started as a brand new hatchling, and for the first few months, especially, sets the tone for how their shell will form forever. With sulcatas, the magic number seems to be around four inches. If you can get them smooth to four inches, they'll stay smooth no matter what you do after that. This is advantageous, as that is right around the time I like to move them permanently outdoors. I'm looking to buy or adopt another SMOOTH hatchling to fully test this theory.

In my case, the pyramiding is not accompanied by any of the other maladies so often associated with it, and appears to be only cosmetic.

There is the gist of what I know. Please correct any fallacies I may have created and add anything that I am missing. Please feel free ask any questions about my husbandry or methods, or point out anything wrong. I'll answer all questions honestly and openly. I want to learn here and my pride and ego will be taking a back seat. For the benefit of all of our amazing tortoises, I would like nothing better than to see this demystified.
 

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Yvonne G

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egyptiandan said:

When I posted those pictures here on the forum several months ago we had a discussion about cosmetic or not, and while I thought porous bones and shell was NOT just cosmetic, others contradicted me and said pyramiding IS just cosmetic unless it is accompanied by MBD. So I changed my way of thinking. But now you say it isn't just cosmetic???I personally feel that if the shell is that porous, then it isn't just a cosmetic thing. The tortoise isn't as strong as a non pyramided tortoise.
 

egyptiandan

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Oh that is MBD with the bone of the carapace being that porous. MBD comes in many shapes and sizes. :D from mildly pyramided to grossly pyrmided to flat to happening with a very smooth WC animal with over grown beak and nails.

Seeing as it's not the scute that pyramids, but the bone underneath. I'd have to say diet is the major factor in pyramiding, with hydration (humid hides) coming second. Hydration keeps the body functioning properly so it can utilise the calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D supplied. But if you just keep hydrated and don't supply the calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D, you will get a pyramided tortoise.

Yes you have figured out that future grow is depended on a hatchlings health up to a certain age. Once you pass that age, shell growth is "set in stone" and will only grow in the way it has started to grow.

Danny
 

Tom

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Redfoot NERD said:
Please keep in mind that Richard is talking about different species.. which can make a difference when it comes to diet, humidity and UVB /D3 requirements.. http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html

He is no doubt the foremost expert on sulcata's however.. and is always willing to share info via email or phone!

NERD
Love this. Everyone who is considering buying a tortoise should be required to read this and the africantortoise.com site! It shows me that my observations were largely correct. I, however, have been unable to stop it once it starts, regardless of humidity. My little Daisy is housed in my roach/reptile room and every cage, bin and container in there is maintained very humid, so the room humidity stays around 40-50% even when its single digit humidity outside. Within her pen, its around 80-90%. I'll post a pic later.

I wish I had this info 20 years ago. Its sad to think that 100 years from now there will be a stark visual reminder of how ignorant we were in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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I am not a doctor or a Vet and reading all that you people have posted just now gives me a headache so frankly I just skimmed it. Pyramiding in MY experience is caused by 4 things, lack of humidity, crappy diet, not good UVB and lack of exercise. In skimming over all that verbose wording I'm not sure I saw those 4 things all together. If any one of those is lacking then you get pyramiding. I think of those 4 the 2 most important are humidity and exercise. With your animals in a reptile room or kept in tanks all the humidity in the world wouldn't prevent pyramiding. That's just my experience and opinion.
 

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maggie3fan said:
I am not a doctor or a Vet and reading all that you people have posted just now gives me a headache so frankly I just skimmed it. Pyramiding in MY experience is caused by 4 things, lack of humidity, crappy diet, not good UVB and lack of exercise. In skimming over all that verbose wording I'm not sure I saw those 4 things all together. If any one of those is lacking then you get pyramiding. I think of those 4 the 2 most important are humidity and exercise. With your animals in a reptile room or kept in tanks all the humidity in the world wouldn't prevent pyramiding. That's just my experience and opinion.

In my set up the thing that was lacking was humidity. That was the whole point of the post. Diet, UV and exercise really couldn't be any better, but they have always been kept very dry. This was done intentionally because I didn't know any better. I was always told to keep desert species dry.
 

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So...for my Taco, who is about 4 years old and 6" SCL, there is no hope of my now-conscientious husbandry producing any normal shell growth during the small window of time till she reaches full size?

That is depressing.:( The next obvious question is whether my Chaco's pyramiding is concurrent with MBD or not. How do I know?

And, Roachman, (since you've opened yourself to "examination" ;) ) do you know if Taco's pyramided shell will significantly reduce her lifespan? Will it cause other conditions that may be painful or disabling? :(
 

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Stephanie Logan said:
So...for my Taco, who is about 4 years old and 6" SCL, there is no hope of my now-conscientious husbandry producing any normal shell growth during the small window of time till she reaches full size?

That is depressing.:( The next obvious question is whether my Chaco's pyramiding is concurrent with MBD or not. How do I know?

And, Roachman, (since you've opened yourself to "examination" ;) ) do you know if Taco's pyramided shell will significantly reduce her lifespan? Will it cause other conditions that may be painful or disabling? :(

Stephanie, I have not been able to stop it once it starts. Maybe somebody else can tell us how. Mine aren't too bad, but they aren't smooth. Scooter and Bert are 12 years old and over 18" long, so I don't think much can be done for them. Delores is ten and hers is the worst. I'll get pics up soon. Daisy is just over a year and I'd love to learn how to stop her pyramiding. I've been feeding her the right foods in relatively small amounts. I can't make her enclosure any more humid unless I run an ultrasonic humidifier in there 24/7.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2757/4277379303_b278202b78_b.jpg

BTW, you don't have a "small window of time" until full size is reached, you've got many many years.

As far as your MBD question, I really don't think the two are related. They have two different causes. Sometimes you see them together because the causes of both are seen together. In other words, its usually the same people who keep them indoors on dry substrate(pyramiding), that don't give them UV and enough CA/D3(MBD). To answer your question; if your tort is getting a good diet, enough UV, and enough CA supplementation MBD should not be a problem, regardless of pyramiding.

For your last question I have to defer to Mr. Fife's website listed above. I just read it today and it confirms what I thought. Pyramiding seems to be cosmetic and not painful or disabling. He says in severe cases it can hinder the male mounting for reproduction. I CAN tell you, my herd is as healthy as any I've ever seen, their shells just look like a used knobby motorcycle tire.

One thing I'd like to put out there is that if anyone has a pyramided, but otherwise well cared for tort, they should not be made to feel like they've done something wrong. It doesn't seem to hurt them and we just didn't know that this desert species needed so much humidity at an early age. This is brand new info ( I just heard about it in 2007 and it was only confirmed today, here on this forum ) and most people, outside of this forum, still haven't heard it. Its not like we didn't try to do the right thing. I know countless people, like me, who read and studied everything they could find on this subject. We all exercised due diligence, the information just didn't exist yet.
 

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This is obviously a a thoughtless statement. Pyramiding is often cosmetic.

I know you're not going to touch this... unless your bored... but my comment is for the reader who has not had the benefit to look into some of the archives of the older groups.

Once again... all those wild tortoises that are pyramided are malformed... not.



egyptiandan said:


Those photos are not good examples of the point trying to be made... they are perfect examples of taking information out of context to lead you to believe a specific point of view.

If you look at many different examples you will see how huge a range bone development covers from sponge porous to thin dense bone. To say that pyramiding is a deformity is not really understand the process involved.

Roachman26 said:
egyptiandan said:
Great pics. Demonstrates what pyramiding looks like from the inside, but how does this affect their health in any way? Also, the one in the pic is fairly heavily pyramided, what about a mildly pyramided one?


You're almost there Danny... it is thought by many that the keratin pyramids... nice to see some change. Why do you think the bone pushes up instead of out... could it be that something is restricting/girdling it?


egyptiandan said:
Oh that is MBD with the bone of the carapace being that porous. MBD comes in many shapes and sizes. :D from mildly pyramided to grossly pyrmided to flat to happening with a very smooth WC animal with over grown beak and nails.

Seeing as it's not the scute that pyramids, but the bone underneath. I'd have to say diet is the major factor in pyramiding, with hydration (humid hides) coming second. Hydration keeps the body functioning properly so it can utilise the calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D supplied. But if you just keep hydrated and don't supply the calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D, you will get a pyramided tortoise.

Yes you have figured out that future grow is depended on a hatchlings health up to a certain age. Once you pass that age, shell growth is "set in stone" and will only grow in the way it has started to grow.

Danny
 

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I've kind of had the same fustrations as Roachman26 over the years. I would be thinking that their shells were growing flat/smooth and after the next growth spurt, have it turn out to be just another step in the pyramid.

I have figured out it is a long process of growth. The best way I can describe it is 'curing'. The tortoise is eating at the present. It has eaten for weeks and the food has turned into growth. And there is older growth that has been 'curing'. Basically, once past this curing stage there is no correcting the growth. During the curing if the tortoise does not have access to enough humidity, the tortoise becomes what I call 'externally dehydrated'. Maybe another way to look at is like curing cement. It's not the same process, but the biology of the tortoise shell has a process of growing. To have cement cure 'properly', it takes a release of moister at a certain rate over time. If not done right, you have weak, chipping sidewalk. With the correct balance of humidity and heat, I believe pyramiding can be prevented or its progression lessened.

I mentioned the balance of humidity and heat. In the wild, the tortoise exists in a place where it can find what it needs. It thrives. I believe the mistake we have as keepers is that we think we know what the tortoise needs and sometimes we think we are actually providing it.

If you are still with me, let me explain further...

Here in Michigan we go through four season. There is no way anyone can create a set up here to satisfy a tortoise without adjusting it regularly. With the temps and humidity changing, whether indoors with heaters and air conditioning or outside with the seasons, it is constantly changing. Tortoises do not thrive here in the wild and for good reason.

There is two ends of the sprectrum when heating:
1. Low ambient temps with high temp basking light.
2. High ambient temps with low temp basking light.

Neither sounds correct, but as keepers we need to adjust things some where inbetween. It is different through out the year here and its not the same in other areas of the country. And then add in humidity, it gets complex.

In general, humid hide boxes do not work well here unless you suppliment with heat. What usually happens is the box is cold with a lot of condisation. As we all know, that's not good for a tortoise.

I am sure this post is not complete, but these are things to think about.

One more thing I would like to bring up....there was an article in Reptiles about Redfoots. I don't remember how, but some mainland Reds ended up on an offshore island which was desert-like. The Reds thrived, but were very Pyramided. I don't believe the auther put two and two together. He noted the different growth, but if I recall, he did not make a conclusion about it.
 

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egyptiandan said:
Oh that is MBD with the bone of the carapace being that porous. MBD comes in many shapes and sizes. :D from mildly pyramided to grossly pyrmided to flat to happening with a very smooth WC animal with over grown beak and nails.

Seeing as it's not the scute that pyramids, but the bone underneath. I'd have to say diet is the major factor in pyramiding, with hydration (humid hides) coming second. Hydration keeps the body functioning properly so it can utilise the calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D supplied. But if you just keep hydrated and don't supply the calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D, you will get a pyramided tortoise.

Yes you have figured out that future grow is depended on a hatchlings health up to a certain age. Once you pass that age, shell growth is "set in stone" and will only grow in the way it has started to grow.

Danny

Dan, I used to think so too, but I have to disagree with you. My torts have always had an excellent diet, lots of space and exercise, direct sunshine almost everyday all year long, occasional light Ca supplementation and regular soaks. In fact, I've underfed them because I mistakenly thought that growing them slower would reduce/eliminate pyramiding. My torts do not have and have never had any MBD symptoms. whatsoever. My boys are 12 years old and only 18 inches long. Of all the listed possible causes for MBD the only one even remotely present in any of my four torts is dryness/lack of humidity.

Further, what do over-grown beaks and nails(keratin) have to do with Metabolic BONE Disease? Seems to me overgrown nails would come from a high protein diet with a lack of exercise and/or lack of abrasion on a proper outdoor substrate.
 

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I don't know the science of it, but usually the first sign of MBD you see in, for instance, box turtles is overgrown, curly nails and mis-shapen and overgrown beak.
 

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emysemys said:
I don't know the science of it, but usually the first sign of MBD you see in, for instance, box turtles is overgrown, curly nails and mis-shapen and overgrown beak.

I too have seen cases of MBD with cases of overgrown beaks and nails, but aren't these two totally separate issues with the same cause? Neglect and/or improper husbandry.

I'm failing to understand how a systemic shortage of calcium has anything to do with excess, uncontrolled keratin growth.

In lizards with severe MBD, when the bone is absorbed to a certain point in order to sustain life, the body tries to reinforce the weakened bone area by surrounding it with fibrous connective tissue. This is why the limbs and jaw line look puffy.

Is there something similar(but involving keratin) going on with turtles and tortoise that I don't know about?

I'm harping on this point for two reasons:
1. I want to learn. I hate being ignorant.
2. I want to eliminate as much confusion as possible for all of us who are trying to figure out MBD, pyramiding and related health issues.
 

vickyb

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I meant suggest in terms of keeping humidity up in vivariums. I am in Toronto, Canada and my RF is currently only 3.5 " long so I have to rely on a vivarium
 
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