I think why sulcatas might have more pyramiding is because they are one of the biggest tortoises. Most other tortoises don't get up to 90 pounds so the pyramiding can't get as bad.
Pyramiding
- Thread starter drgnfly2265
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I agree with you Maggie. I have been frustrated by this stuff for two decades, and only recently have we made good progress. We still have a ways to go, and quite a few more questions to answer though.
M
Maggie Cummings
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dmmj said:
Yup, it's us, it was them that caused pyramiding in the first place...
What about hibernating? I have sorta read the end of pyramiding thread but would hibernation have an affect at all? Being cold and wet down in the moist dirt for almost half a year? I don't know much and I don't even know if sulcatas are supposed to hibernate but I'm just saying for any tort? And I'm new and again don't know much or read much, but why do turtles and box turtles not pyramid? They stay small, but is there a significant difference that they do or don't that tortoises do or don't?
I'm just saying is there ANY possibility that something other than diet, exercise, uv, and moisture/humidity could cause or affect pyramiding? Anything at all or have you found the best solution?
Here are some random ideas that tortoises might do in the wild:
Rub against rocks (totally random)
Travel long distances for food (exercise)
Burrow deep down to cold moisture (moisture/humidity)
hot dry sun (uv)
And sometimes they don't get food for a loooong time because they were built to take it. Even though your test denied this could there be some perfect combination of things that make smooth torts? Maybe you have found it and other people that try don't get something right.
Ok I'm burning out go ahead and tell me if any of that made since.
I'm just saying is there ANY possibility that something other than diet, exercise, uv, and moisture/humidity could cause or affect pyramiding? Anything at all or have you found the best solution?
Here are some random ideas that tortoises might do in the wild:
Rub against rocks (totally random)
Travel long distances for food (exercise)
Burrow deep down to cold moisture (moisture/humidity)
hot dry sun (uv)
And sometimes they don't get food for a loooong time because they were built to take it. Even though your test denied this could there be some perfect combination of things that make smooth torts? Maybe you have found it and other people that try don't get something right.
Ok I'm burning out go ahead and tell me if any of that made since.
drgnfly2265 said:
It always looks like the cases with sulcatas are more "extreme". It sounds like there could be many causes. I wish that we could find out what causes it. Is their any possibility that it can be in their family geans?
For one thing, those pictures aren't showing tortoises that are just pyramided. Both of them are suffering SEVERE MBD (metabolic bone disease.)
TurtleTortoise said:
In general the species that hibernate are less prone to pyramiding. Those species do not tend to pyramid much even for the people who don't hibernate them. Most of the Testudo species can be grown smoothly with out so much attention to humidity, moisture and hydration. This has been demonstrated here many times. Usually when one sees pyramiding in these or box turtles or RES, it is also usually associated with horrible husbandry, a terrible diet, and a complete lack of any UV.
There are LOTS of possibilities for other factors that contribute to pyramiding. We are now able to grow them smooth, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions.
I'll answer for each of your ideas.
1. Abrasion does have a slightly smoothing effect, but remember that the scute material is only a little thicker than your thumbnail. It is the porous, malformed bone underneath that IS the pyramid.
2. Exercise helps burn calories, so less energy left over for growth. My research has shown me that growth in the wrong conditions (dry) is pyramided growth. Growth in the right conditions (wet and warm) is smooth. The rate doesn't matter.
3. The burrowing gives you some abrasion, but it also gives you more humidity than above ground. Humidity contributes to keeping a tortoise hydrated and helping the shell grow smoothly.
4. I cannot say that I know of a smooth tortoise that was not getting either sunshine or artificial UV. Anyone out there know of one? All of mine get sun all year long.
5. See #2. But also, if there is no growth, due to lack of food, there is also no bad growth. In the wild they grow when there is plentiful food. There is plentiful food in the wet, humid rainy season. So most of their growth happens during the rainy season because they are eating a lot.
So far everyone that I know of that is following the "wet" routine is growing smooth torts. Some people go farther than others, and it varies around the country too, but most everyone using a humid hide box, a damp substrate, regular soaks and shell spraying is growing a smooth baby.
Thank you all for the great responses! I really appreciate it 
There has been so much that I was wanting to say on this thread but I'm trying to get over a cold that is trying to kick my butt
Tom - I looked up leopards pyramiding and a lot of pictures do show up. And they do show signs of a lot of really bad pyramiding. I kept an eye out for leopards at the F.I.R.Expo that I dragged myself and the hubby to today, since I felt a little better and needed some fresh air. And I did see leopards with a good amount of pyramiding.
I agree with you Maggie3fan. We are learning so much still. And like you said, how we kept our tortoises 5 years ago and how we keep them today has changed. I keep Bowser on cypress mulch now and not hay, I'm switching up her diet, and she is getting misted now. When I first got her I would have been afraid to mist her because I wouldn't want to give her a respatory infection.
And for the pics, I didn't even think about if the sulcatas had MBD. So that can be the problem a lot of the times that I see pyramiding...
I guess sulcatas are usually the first type of torts that they show with all the pyramiding. And I agree that their size probably makes it seems more than what the others pyramiding would be.
There has been so much that I was wanting to say on this thread but I'm trying to get over a cold that is trying to kick my butt
Tom - I looked up leopards pyramiding and a lot of pictures do show up. And they do show signs of a lot of really bad pyramiding. I kept an eye out for leopards at the F.I.R.Expo that I dragged myself and the hubby to today, since I felt a little better and needed some fresh air. And I did see leopards with a good amount of pyramiding.
I agree with you Maggie3fan. We are learning so much still. And like you said, how we kept our tortoises 5 years ago and how we keep them today has changed. I keep Bowser on cypress mulch now and not hay, I'm switching up her diet, and she is getting misted now. When I first got her I would have been afraid to mist her because I wouldn't want to give her a respatory infection.
And for the pics, I didn't even think about if the sulcatas had MBD. So that can be the problem a lot of the times that I see pyramiding...
I guess sulcatas are usually the first type of torts that they show with all the pyramiding. And I agree that their size probably makes it seems more than what the others pyramiding would be.
Tom said:
That is what it sounds right. rainy season=more food, more food=more growth, and rainy/wet/humid+growth=smooth shell.
Right!
The big question is, What do we do with them in captivity? Do we simulate 9 months of very little to eat and extreme temps, then give them three months of all they can eat with humidity and water (like rain) sprayed on their shells?
It is my opinion that providing them with natural grazing (or a plate of food on the indoor days) and the right conditions year round does absolutely no harm. Yes, they can SURVIVE the dry periods, but is that good for them? Do they somehow biologically need that to remain healthy in the long term? Because they have to survive the seasons and hard times in the wild, should we somehow attempt to induce that in captivity? Is there some happy medium?
In the wild their growth occurs when conditions are optimal. If they have a long and productive rainy season, say 5 months instead of three, they eat more and grow more. When the rain stops and the food disappears, they stop growing, until the next rainy season. So is it harmful if the rain never stops, conditions stay good, and they just eat and grow continually? I don't know. Does anybody really know?
Mine live outside and experience the seasons. They have temp controlled shelters, but the days are still shorter and much colder in the winter. They all seem to be doing well. My adults produce lots of healthy babies. My juveniles are growing steadily and smoothly. They are all very solid and heavy. Would they benefit from a period of little or no food for a few months per year?
The big question is, What do we do with them in captivity? Do we simulate 9 months of very little to eat and extreme temps, then give them three months of all they can eat with humidity and water (like rain) sprayed on their shells?
It is my opinion that providing them with natural grazing (or a plate of food on the indoor days) and the right conditions year round does absolutely no harm. Yes, they can SURVIVE the dry periods, but is that good for them? Do they somehow biologically need that to remain healthy in the long term? Because they have to survive the seasons and hard times in the wild, should we somehow attempt to induce that in captivity? Is there some happy medium?
In the wild their growth occurs when conditions are optimal. If they have a long and productive rainy season, say 5 months instead of three, they eat more and grow more. When the rain stops and the food disappears, they stop growing, until the next rainy season. So is it harmful if the rain never stops, conditions stay good, and they just eat and grow continually? I don't know. Does anybody really know?
Mine live outside and experience the seasons. They have temp controlled shelters, but the days are still shorter and much colder in the winter. They all seem to be doing well. My adults produce lots of healthy babies. My juveniles are growing steadily and smoothly. They are all very solid and heavy. Would they benefit from a period of little or no food for a few months per year?
Tom said:
I just wanted to point out that the "wet" routine is not the only method of growing smooth tortoises as emphasized in my http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hydration-Vs-Humidity-Adults-Only#axzz1YLxVtdfz. I don't think you meant it that way, but I thought it is important to note that in this conversation.
Currently of my hatchlings the only access to a humid they have is their humid hide box which is only 1/3 of their indoor enclosures, everything else is dry. They are well hydrated, as were the tortoises I spoke of in the thread referenced above, so in my experience hydration intake has been the key factor. I think pyramiding is complex even to the point of different types of pyramiding. I have not sprayed my tortoises shells (except in warmer weather to cool them off) and all my tortoises so far have grown very smooth.
I don't know, but it seems like the only way to know if all year round rainy seasons would affect them would be some intense hard work that lasts at least 1 gen. of torts being tested. That is too long for us right now. Somebody has to study them in their natural habitat and then try and keep a sulcata from hatchling to adult as best they possibly can replicating their natural habitat then also one with an "all rainy season" and see what happens. It is all test and retest. You have done plenty yourself (Tom), more than I could ever do. You may have nailed it with the wet conditions. Or maybe were just the start of solving the problem. You never know, people 20 years from now could have completely solved the problem with the help of you. Or that is just the best we can do with them in captivity. Who knows what might happen.
TurtleTortoise said:
My adults were bred from a group of captive bred, captive raised torts. So you have the originals, which I'm assuming were wild caught, then the CBB parents of my adults, then my adults that I raised from hatchlings, and now their hatchlings. So three CBB generations so far. When my current yearlings have babies in a few years it will be CBB generation four.
Tom said:
That gets confusing. Do have them or have seen some of you hatchlings reach adulthood?
Oh wait, of course you have.
Haha. I got my hatchlings in 1998 and now they are adults. So yes I have seen MY hatchlings grow to adulthood. Now my hatchlings (the 1998 ones) are having heir own hatchlings. I guess THOSE are also MY hatchlings. Haha.
Got all that straight?
Got all that straight?
Hey Tom I love a good meal made up of "food for thought", seriously...one of my favorites. Just means I am about to take in new information
I in no way, whatsoever, take anything you have said here or in any other threads, as a way to be negative towards me...I too have liked you since I have joined this wonderful forum....k
I thank you so very much for your offer of a visit, I will certainly pm you soon and see if our schedules can align with one another...that would be fantastic.
You and I do not differ too much in what we think on care of "arid" tortoise, I say that just for reference sake. I have always watered my tortoise, use to be a joke where I worked when I would go out to change the water in the soaking dish on my office patio for the two CDTs I had there with me...I would be made fun of for "watering the tortoise like a damn plant" hahaha, I would just smile and shake my head...these comments from folks who called my tortoise "big ole turtles"...so anyways LOL.
I think that the only time you where provokedP) by my comments are when I make the statement "slow steady growth, don't rush it"...so, here is where this statement gets generated from in my head....
I use to train dogs for obedience and behavior modification and began shadowing this crazy man (I say that with great respect and awe) on Schutzhund training, I have had a sleeve on twice (as much as I could physically take) and felt the solid power that came from those awesome animals...strong, sturdy solid as a mack truck....I had trained a variety of shepherds, and rottweilers.....of which I have respect for their intense intelligence and sheer power...this crazy man I worked with opened up to me in regards to their breeding...for solid bone structure, maximum growth of their lungs for great capacity to physically be able to be tenacious in their work, etc.
He made a statement to me that has stuck and that I have always been in agreement with as I use to also show and participate in breeding program with a close friend for years of Old English Bulldogge...
Where my beliefs generate from-- 1) a slow, solid, well formed bone structure is of utmost importance for longevity and this is achieved by not rushing to the prize, time to "settle" into their bones, so to speak....2) a slow and steady growth with the proper nutrition and exercise will allow for the maximum lung health and capacity...so Tom, when I say slow and steady I refer to just that....not that I associate it with any old day tortoise husbandry...I know better as well that every day brings evolution...I am so glad that I am part of this forum to share the tiny bit of knowledge that I have and absorb and gain the huge pieces that you as well as others have to offer.....
I love a good meal made up of "food for thought", seriously...one of my favorites. Just means I am about to take in new information I in no way, whatsoever, take anything you have said here or in any other threads, as a way to be negative towards me...I too have liked you since I have joined this wonderful forum....k
I thank you so very much for your offer of a visit, I will certainly pm you soon and see if our schedules can align with one another...that would be fantastic.
You and I do not differ too much in what we think on care of "arid"
tortoise, I say that just for reference sake. I have always watered my tortoise, use to be a joke where I worked when I would go out to change the water in the soaking dish on my office patio for the two CDTs I had there with me...I would be made fun of for "watering the tortoise like a damn plant" hahaha, I would just smile and shake my head...these comments from folks who called my tortoise "big ole turtles"...so anyways LOL.I think that the only time you where provoked
P) by my comments are when I make the statement "slow steady growth, don't rush it"...so, here is where this statement gets generated from in my head....I use to train dogs for obedience and behavior modification and began shadowing this crazy man (I say that with great respect and awe) on Schutzhund training, I have had a sleeve on twice (as much as I could physically take
) and felt the solid power that came from those awesome animals...strong, sturdy solid as a mack truck....I had trained a variety of shepherds, and rottweilers.....of which I have respect for their intense intelligence and sheer power...this crazy man I worked with opened up to me in regards to their breeding...for solid bone structure, maximum growth of their lungs for great capacity to physically be able to be tenacious in their work, etc. He made a statement to me that has stuck and that I have always been in agreement with as I use to also show and participate in breeding program with a close friend for years of Old English Bulldogge...
Where my beliefs generate from-- 1) a slow, solid, well formed bone structure is of utmost importance for longevity and this is achieved by not rushing to the prize, time to "settle" into their bones, so to speak....2) a slow and steady growth with the proper nutrition and exercise will allow for the maximum lung health and capacity...so Tom, when I say slow and steady I refer to just that....not that I associate it with any old day tortoise husbandry...I know better as well that every day brings evolution...I am so glad that I am part of this forum to share the tiny bit of knowledge that I have and absorb and gain the huge pieces that you as well as others have to offer.....
all torts can have a pyramiding case..
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