Newcomer got bad advice

[Speeddymon]

Hi there everyone. I'm afraid I've gotten a handful of bad advice along with some good advice.

First, let me start out by saying I read the "Tortoise 101" post and plan to refer to it frequently, but that being said, I have many questions.

I guess I'll start with how I got into wanting a tortoise and go from there. Be warned, I'm long winded when typing, so this post will likely be long.

About a year and a half ago, I was living in San Antonio, Texas, but I made weekly trips to Houston to see my kids. One time on the way back to San Antonio, I took a different route to avoid a construction zone, and happened across a red eared slider that was injured in the middle of the road. I stopped and picked it up, so that when I got back to San Antonio, I could get it to a vet. The back of its shell, by the tail, was broken and bleeding and just kind of hanging there still attached to the skin. I think it was hit by a careless driver that just kept driving.

Anyways, I didn't know the first thing about tortoises, or even the difference between tortoises and turtles, let alone that there were laws protecting some species, but I got it to a vet/rescue place. They gave me some info and let me know that I couldn't keep it because it was protected. They took it in and, as far as I know, fixed it up and released it back into the wild out in San Marcos.

Well, it was then that I decided I wanted to get a tortoise, so I started looking up shops that carried them and ended up going to River city Exotics.

Its been a while so I don't recall if the person that helped me there was the owner or just an employee, though I'm inclined to say he was the owner. I ended up buying everything he said I would need to take care of a tortoise, but that was so expensive that I planned to get the tortoise later on.... That ended up not happening due to financial constraints.

What I ended up getting was a 20 gal aquarium, 5 lbs of rabbit food to use as substrate, calcium powder, 1 ballast lamp and a UVB bulb, 1 "dish" lamp and an Exo Terra heat bulb, a flat rock shaped feeding container, a top screen for the aquarium, some latches, and a heat pad.

All of that sat in my mother's house after I moved back to Houston permanently later last year.

Fast forward to this past weekend, my mother went outside for something while I was at work and she found a tortoise sitting on the rope for the Polaris in our pool. Not knowing if it was a turtle or tortoise, she assumed it was likely to drown and rescued it. Of course she called me and asked me what to do with it, so I told her to keep it in the aquarium until I could get home and google to identify it.

Turns out its not protected in Texas, as its an Ornate Box Tortoise (verified the type of tortoise with a local vet). So after getting it home from the vet, I dumped the rabbit food into the aquarium and setup everything according to the instructions on the packaging (heat pad on the side, end, of the aquarium, UVB ballast lamp over the end with the heat pad, and basking lamp over the other end.

See next post for the rest.

 

[bigred]

Rabbit pellets not to good of a substrate for a box Turtle, To dry. See if you can get ahold of some sphagnum moss and try to mist daily or build a small outside enclosure with plenty of plants and leaf litter for him to hide under.

 

[tortadise]

Welcome. And ditto above, these guys live in our forested areas and along deep wood pockets. They love to burrow under things.

 

[wellington]

Hello and WELCOME.. Personally, if the boxie is native to your area, it should be let go back into the wild. That said, if you are going to keep it. The rabbit pellets are the worse thing to put any tortoise on. I don't know much about boxies, so I will let the experienced with them help you with anything else.

 

[Speeddymon]

Thanks for the replies, I didn't realize when I first posted that the system moderates you, so here's the rest of my plight. I'll try to answer each of the responses also.

I'm really not sure how it wound up in my back yard; there's a forest trail that runs through the area, but it's mostly humanized at this point (not much forest, and plenty of people walking along it). The nearest bayou is a long walk for any small animal, too. At any rate, I'm scared that it won't survive if I put it back into the wild, since Houston is already having a drought (lakes are down several inches) and the forest trail that I mentioned isn't very forest-y anymore.

I did discover that the rabbit pellets suck when the tortoise spilled the container of water on them. They never dried out like I thought they would, and wound up getting moldy. Thanks for the suggestions on the moss. Can that be used across the entire bottom of the aquarium, including out in the open parts of the basking area?

I put some julienne carrots into the feeding bowl and put water into a really small tupperware container I had (not knowing about them soaking in the water bowl -- need to find something bigger that he can still get into). The tortoise doesn't seem to want to eat any veggies though. I did buy some meal worms and happened to find an earthworm outside once. He ate the worms within a couple of minutes of me putting them in the housing but I don't want to make him sick by only feeding him those. The bigger problem is that until I get paid next week, I don't have anything other than the carrots and mealworms, and I realize they need a more varied diet.

Here are my other questions.

1) Is a 20 gal aquarium too small? I'll mention that I plan to do an outdoor area, but I would still need to know for during the winter months. The tortoise is about the size of a softball right now, but I'm fairly sure it's going to grow.
2) How long do I need to leave either light turned on? I was leaving the UVB on 24/7 until I read about indicating day/night cycle. I was putting on the basking lamp for a couple of hours at a time, intermittently whenever I'm home.
3) I followed the manufacturer instructions regarding placement of the heat pad, and the temperature gauge I have on the inside of the tank says it's 84 in there, but it just doesn't feel like the heating pad is doing its job. My house runs hot during the day anyways to save electricity, so I would have thought that the tank would have gotten hotter. It seems to stay the same temperature at night though too, so I suppose it is working, but I just wanted to make sure that the side of the tank, on the end, is an acceptable location. For the record, the top of the tank is a wire mesh tank top, so it doesn't hold in any heat. I'm just dumbfounded at how it can stay 84 degrees in there, constantly, even though the house gets hotter during the day.
4) Is it ok to use a bathtub to let it soak, and how often should I soak it if so? My kids want it to take a bath with them (not happening) but I thought maybe they could "watch it take a bath" before they take theirs nightly.
5) Regarding substrate, other than spaghnum moss, what else is good? I asked earlier if the moss can be used all over the enclosure. If not, what else works and where should I place each kind of substrate?
6) Lastly, when considering an outdoor enclosure, how much sunlight should he get? There are no tall trees in or near my back yard, so the sun hits most of the yard, most of the day. There is one crepe myrtle tree on the back corner of the property line along the fence, and I have some stones as a border around that. I could extend that area out into the grass with the stones (and by buying a few more) so that there is shade when it wants that, and sun otherwise. Plus the stones I think would make a good enclosure for fairly cheap since I already have some. I'll take a picture of how the area looks now and link it here shortly.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. Sounds like you are already on the right track.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Speeddymon:

Welcome to the Forum!!

If your new box turtle is about the size of a soft ball, then it is full grown...however, a 20 gallon aquarium still isn't big enough. A full grown box turtle needs some room to wander and really is much better off outside.

We haven't talked about the book case habitat in a long while, so I'll tell you about that. You go around to yard/garage sales and try to find a 5-shelf book case. Remove the shelves and maybe reinforce the back (which will be the bottom). Line it with plastic sheeting, add substrate and "furniture" and its almost an instant turtle habitat. Plenty big and mighty easy.

My substrate of choice is fine grade orchid bark. If I can't find that, I'll go to cypress mulch. Both of those can be moistened...and your box turtle needs a moist substrate.

Box turtles will eat fruits and veggies along with slugs and bugs.

Here's a nice care sheet for your perusal:

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/american/boxcare.html

After you've become acquainted with our format here I'd love to see pictures of your new turtle.

What would you like us to call you?

 

[Speeddymon]

If your new box turtle is about the size of a soft ball, then it is full grown...however, a 20 gallon aquarium still isn't big enough. A full grown box turtle needs some room to wander and really is much better off outside.

Thanks for the info. I suspected as much about the aquarium.

We haven't talked about the book case habitat in a long while, so I'll tell you about that. You go around to yard/garage sales and try to find a 5-shelf book case. Remove the shelves and maybe reinforce the back (which will be the bottom). Line it with plastic sheeting, add substrate and "furniture" and its almost an instant turtle habitat. Plenty big and mighty easy.

Would the book cases sold at walmart work, so long as I replace the back with something stronger? They are more than 5 shelves and cost about $100, which is still cheaper than the aquarium I have him in now. That brings up a question. Is there a such thing as too much space?

My substrate of choice is fine grade orchid bark. If I can't find that, I'll go to cypress mulch. Both of those can be moistened...and your box turtle needs a moist substrate.

Plant stores carry these most times, correct? How often should I mist the substrate and will a cleaned out bottle of windex work for misting or do I need a garden hose attachment? What about a soaker hose kept on a very very low setting (just barely dripping from the spigot) for an outdoor enclosure?

Box turtles will eat fruits and veggies along with slugs and bugs.

Here's a nice care sheet for your perusal:

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/american/boxcare.html

Cool thanks. I did try strawberries, grapes and cantaloupe, but he just looked at it like "you're crazy if you think I'm going to eat that"..
How small should the pieces of (anything) be?

After you've become acquainted with our format here I'd love to see pictures of your new turtle.

What would you like us to call you?

My name is Tom, and I'll definitely get some pictures uploaded soon.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Tom:

Yes, you can buy a new book case, but the used ones are cheaper. And if you put it where you want it and don't plan on moving it, then the cheap-o back won't matter.

No, there is no such thing as too much space!

You can find orchid bark at plant nurseries. But in all fairness, I have to tell you that quite a few of the folks on the forum use coco-coir. That can be purchased at pet stores. Its sometimes called Bed-A-Beast and comes in a compressed brick. I don't like it. The cypress mulch can be bought cheap at Lowe's in the plant section, or a little more costly at pet stores.

When I add water to my substrate, I just pour it from a pitcher and mix it up with my hand.

I don't cut up food except for cutting it in half, just to give them an "edge" to bite on.

 

[Speeddymon]

Sounds good. I hope it likes leaf spinach. I put some in there with a meal worm just a few minutes ago and he's now over at the bowl... Hopefully he took some of the spinach in with the meal worm and will continue to eat it.

How much water are we talking? The entire pitcher, or just some?

What about some of the other questions I asked previously?

 

[turtlemann2]

You want enough water for the soil to feel nice and loose and moist NOT wet.

Also get rid of the heating pad! In nature turtles recieve heat from above and desire such. The heating pads/rocks can cause burns on the bottom shell (plastrom) as they have a weak sense of feeling through their plastrom.

i use the open top shelf system and it works nicly, mine is on top of a dresser for stability.

 

[Madkins007]

Also get rid of the heating pad! In nature turtles recieve heat from above and desire such. The heating pads/rocks can cause burns on the bottom shell (plastrom) as they have a weak sense of feeling through their plastrom.

Actually, most reptiles benefit greatly from 'bottom warmth'- as long as it is not too hot. This is why you often find reptiles 'basking' on roads and rocks after sundown- getting good 'bottom warmth'- which helps in the digestion process.

However- unless your substrate is clammy, it really is not too helpful in captivity. For my red-footed, humidity-loving torts in cool/dry Omaha, I use a waterproof heating cable buried under the substrate. I wet the substrate down, the heating cable heats the water and it drifts/wicks up and creates nice warm humidity for me.

 

[turtlemann2]

I do agree to some extent, especially referring to basking in the sun, yes your right. BUT from the horror stories ive heard and the damage ive seen with the use of hot rocks i will not ever have them in my indoor tables. The cable your referring to i am indifferant since i havnt ever used them or read reviews etc so those could very well work quite nicly.

 

[lisa127]

I also agree about the belly heat. I've always read on turtle forums that belly heat is unnatural. But my three toed box turtle has a flat rock in his enclosure not directly under the heat lamp, but slightly to the side. If you measure the temp of that rock it is usually about 88 degrees. Sitting right on that rock is my three toed's favorite place to warm up.

 

[Speeddymon]

Thanks again for the replies. The heating pad I have right now has instructions to put it on the side of the tank on the end, and away from the basking lamp, which is what I did. By the way, my lamp's bulb burned out after just a couple of days, so he has no lamp until I get a new one next week, though I plan to let him outside today to get the extra warmth and sunlight. The UVB lamp works great though.

Side note, he likes Spinach, but I don't think he likes Carrots. He has yet to touch them I think... Poor guy, I couldn't have gotten him at a worse time, right in between pay checks.

 

[lisa127]

Thanks again for the replies. The heating pad I have right now has instructions to put it on the side of the tank on the end, and away from the basking lamp, which is what I did. By the way, my lamp's bulb burned out after just a couple of days, so he has no lamp until I get a new one next week, though I plan to let him outside today to get the extra warmth and sunlight. The UVB lamp works great though.

Side note, he likes Spinach, but I don't think he likes Carrots. He has yet to touch them I think... Poor guy, I couldn't have gotten him at a worse time, right in between pay checks.

You can use a regular household incandescent bulb for heat that you have in the house already. This way he doesn't have to be cold until next week!

 

[Yvonne G]

1) Is a 20 gal aquarium too small? I'll mention that I plan to do an outdoor area, but I would still need to know for during the winter months. The tortoise is about the size of a softball right now, but I'm fairly sure it's going to grow.

Yes.

2) How long do I need to leave either light turned on? I was leaving the UVB on 24/7 until I read about indicating day/night cycle. I was putting on the basking lamp for a couple of hours at a time, intermittently whenever I'm home.

I leave my lights on from 7am until about 8pm

3) I followed the manufacturer instructions regarding placement of the heat pad, and the temperature gauge I have on the inside of the tank says it's 84 in there, but it just doesn't feel like the heating pad is doing its job. My house runs hot during the day anyways to save electricity, so I would have thought that the tank would have gotten hotter. It seems to stay the same temperature at night though too, so I suppose it is working, but I just wanted to make sure that the side of the tank, on the end, is an acceptable location. For the record, the top of the tank is a wire mesh tank top, so it doesn't hold in any heat. I'm just dumbfounded at how it can stay 84 degrees in there, constantly, even though the house gets hotter during the day.

Those stick-to-the-tank heat pads really don't do anything unless you have them on the bottom of the aquarium. Then you run the risk of it getting too hot if the turtle digs down through the substrate over it. You really need a light over the habitat for warmth.

4) Is it ok to use a bathtub to let it soak, and how often should I soak it if so? My kids want it to take a bath with them (not happening) but I thought maybe they could "watch it take a bath" before they take theirs nightly.

The bath tub is ok. In fact the bigger the soaking tub/pan, the more exercise the turtle gets as he scrambles around trying to get out. Just be sure to clean it good of any residues from previous baths and cleanings

5) Regarding substrate, other than spaghnum moss, what else is good? I asked earlier if the moss can be used all over the enclosure. If not, what else works and where should I place each kind of substrate?

You can use clean dirt from outside if you're sure there's not pesticides or herbicides in it. And it should cover the whole floor about 3 or 4 inches deep. You can have a bit of moist sphagnum moss at one end for them to burrow into if you like.

6) Lastly, when considering an outdoor enclosure, how much sunlight should he get? There are no tall trees in or near my back yard, so the sun hits most of the yard, most of the day. There is one crepe myrtle tree on the back corner of the property line along the fence, and I have some stones as a border around that. I could extend that area out into the grass with the stones (and by buying a few more) so that there is shade when it wants that, and sun otherwise. Plus the stones I think would make a good enclosure for fairly cheap since I already have some. I'll take a picture of how the area looks now and link it here shortly.

My box turtle pens are in deep shade. But they DO need a sunny spot where they can go to warm up if they want to. So, I'd say half sun/half shade all day long. You'll have to watch as the sun moves (? huh?) through the day to be sure it isn't too sunny for him. But if he has hiding places and shrubs to go under it should be ok.

 

[Speeddymon]

Thanks again for the replies. The heating pad I have right now has instructions to put it on the side of the tank on the end, and away from the basking lamp, which is what I did. By the way, my lamp's bulb burned out after just a couple of days, so he has no lamp until I get a new one next week, though I plan to let him outside today to get the extra warmth and sunlight. The UVB lamp works great though.

Side note, he likes Spinach, but I don't think he likes Carrots. He has yet to touch them I think... Poor guy, I couldn't have gotten him at a worse time, right in between pay checks.

You can use a regular household incandescent bulb for heat that you have in the house already. This way he doesn't have to be cold until next week!

If only we had any. I switched us to Fluorescent bulbs about 5 years ago. =(

---

My box turtle pens are in deep shade. But they DO need a sunny spot where they can go to warm up if they want to. So, I'd say half sun/half shade all day long. You'll have to watch as the sun moves (? huh?) through the day to be sure it isn't too sunny for him. But if he has hiding places and shrubs to go under it should be ok.

Thank you a ton! That answers just about every question I had regarding how I should do his housing. Fortunately it's already gotten really hot outside down here, so I took him out for a little bit while I had time today, and I'm going to let him roam the yard tomorrow while the kids and I play in the pool. He flat out refuses to eat carrots, so I put some more spinach in his food dish today, since that's the only veggie I had anything left of.

I was really surprised he wouldn't eat any of the fruits I tried to give him; grapes, cantaloupe, strawberries... None of it. =(

As for the heating pad, I agree about putting it on the bottom; it really just doesn't feel like it's over 80 in there with it mounted on the side, and I'm sure you're right that if he were to burrow under the substrate, it would burn him. At the moment, it's the only source of heating I have other than the sun when I take him outside. Oh that reminds me. He seems to spend 100% of his time on the opposite side of the tank from the heat pad. I have the temp gauge near the end with the heat pad and it says its about 86, so I'm confused as to why he would want to be cold most of the time when he's already cold blooded?

One other question. The area I live in has a lot of tree roaches. Will he go after any that wander into his habitat outside? Should I worry about him going after them, or just let him eat them?

 

[Saloli]

I don't know about in your area but in south Texas the penates are more grassland then forest dwellers. Any way I just thought I'd put that out there.

---

Oh and ornates love grasshoppers

 

[Speeddymon]

What is a penate? Google fails me on that one. =(

BTW, I'm in Houston.