Nitpick me please

Damien Szkatulski

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I am the king of nit-picking! But always with good intentions. I'm just not used to being invited to nit pick…

I'll go through your post bit by bit, but in the end, all of this is in the three threads I will link at the bottom. You are making some common errors, and Im thrilled that you are open to fixing them.

  • 10 gallon is much too small. Can't make a proper thermal gradient in that. Move to the 60 ASAP. And the 60 is only going to last a month or two. This will give you time to build a large closed chamber that will last a couple of years, make your life much easier, and make the tortoises life much better.
  • Coco coir is oaky, but I find it much too messy for sulcatas. Fine grade orchid bark works much better, and both of these can be found much cheaper in bulk at garden centers.
  • This is a tropical species. Temps in the 60s or low 70s are too low, especially for a new baby. Keep temps in the coldest part of the enclosure 80 or higher at all times. Only temperate species need a night drop that low. During the day ambient should creep up to 90-ish and there should be a baking area that is near 100.
  • This species hatches at the start of the monsoon season in the wild. They need warm humid conditions. Shoot for 80% ambient humidity and offer a humid hide with 100% humidity.
  • All of mine try to eat any kind of moss I put in the enclosure. I wouldn't use it. Best to take it out before it causes a problem.
  • Every food you mentioned is the wrong food. None of those are toxic, but that isn't what they should be eating. Here is the right stuff:
  • https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
  • Since you live in the frozen north, the items on my list won't be available in winter. This being the case, when you buy foods at the grocery store, favor endive and escarole as your staple items, but add in sprouted wheat grass (Found in large pet store chains and some grocery store and sold in little plots for a couple of bucks.), cilantro, collard, mustard and turnip greens, bok choy, chard, celery tops, carrot tops, radiccio, spring mix and many others. Add in some blended grass hay, ZooMed Grassland tortoise chow, or regular Mazuri tortoise chow to amend the grocery store greens, add fiber and balance out the nutrition. This last sentence about amending the grocery store food is important. Many people focus on the greens and give less importance to the amendments. Both are important.
  • About your outside points: 1. Puppy pens are not good unless you put a visual barrier around the bottom. I will link some ideas for you below. 2. It doesn't matter when you buy them. This species is very adaptable and they are not bother all that much by moving and new enclosures. 3. You will need a secure fence around your tortoises eventual outside enclosure when the snow melts. Domestic dogs are probably the single biggest killer of small tortoises.
  • I prefer to leave mine alone in their enclosure and just pull them out for soaks daily, but with sulcatas, it is usually okay to handle them more. If appetite and activity remain good and unchanged, then handle your new pet as much as you like.
  • As you are seeing first hand, that non-sense you always read about glass enclosures is… well… non-sense. I, and many others have been using them for decades with 100's of babies and never and issue. They are actually good for all the reasons they falsely claim they are bad. Reduced ventilation? Good! My warm humid air will stay where I want it, INSIDE the enclosure!
  • I think is intermittent appetite is due to the cold temps. This should improve with warmer temps.
  • I feed hatchlings whole leaves. I find they have an easier time tearing off bite size chunks when they have the weigh and drag of the whole leaf to pull against. Other people chop it up. Either way works due to that sulcata adaptability.
  • Yes! I read the whole thing!
Here is that care info:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Enclosure ideas for sunning the baby:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cheap-easy-simple-sunning-enclosure.14680/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/simple-sunning-enclosure.104351/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...table-but-safe-outdoor-baby-enclosures.30683/

Hit me with all your questions after reading this.
Oh, hello tom ^_^
Ive been working on making a list to what I need. I have a larger tank that I will move him into when I have the supplies that he needs (I'm thinking an undertank heat pad, a bark/coconut fiber mix substrate, heat lamp, etc.) I wish I would have got that stuff before getting him, but I feel UVB and 70-75 degree temps aswell as good humidity could sustain, at least until I can get my larger tank setup. I feel like if I don't have my heater it would be even harder to manage temp in the larger one.
 

Damien Szkatulski

Member
Today is my birthday!
Joined
Dec 2, 2017
Messages
92
Location (City and/or State)
Ohio, United States
I am the king of nit-picking! But always with good intentions. I'm just not used to being invited to nit pick…

I'll go through your post bit by bit, but in the end, all of this is in the three threads I will link at the bottom. You are making some common errors, and Im thrilled that you are open to fixing them.

  • 10 gallon is much too small. Can't make a proper thermal gradient in that. Move to the 60 ASAP. And the 60 is only going to last a month or two. This will give you time to build a large closed chamber that will last a couple of years, make your life much easier, and make the tortoises life much better.
  • Coco coir is oaky, but I find it much too messy for sulcatas. Fine grade orchid bark works much better, and both of these can be found much cheaper in bulk at garden centers.
  • This is a tropical species. Temps in the 60s or low 70s are too low, especially for a new baby. Keep temps in the coldest part of the enclosure 80 or higher at all times. Only temperate species need a night drop that low. During the day ambient should creep up to 90-ish and there should be a baking area that is near 100.
  • This species hatches at the start of the monsoon season in the wild. They need warm humid conditions. Shoot for 80% ambient humidity and offer a humid hide with 100% humidity.
  • All of mine try to eat any kind of moss I put in the enclosure. I wouldn't use it. Best to take it out before it causes a problem.
  • Every food you mentioned is the wrong food. None of those are toxic, but that isn't what they should be eating. Here is the right stuff:
  • https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
  • Since you live in the frozen north, the items on my list won't be available in winter. This being the case, when you buy foods at the grocery store, favor endive and escarole as your staple items, but add in sprouted wheat grass (Found in large pet store chains and some grocery store and sold in little plots for a couple of bucks.), cilantro, collard, mustard and turnip greens, bok choy, chard, celery tops, carrot tops, radiccio, spring mix and many others. Add in some blended grass hay, ZooMed Grassland tortoise chow, or regular Mazuri tortoise chow to amend the grocery store greens, add fiber and balance out the nutrition. This last sentence about amending the grocery store food is important. Many people focus on the greens and give less importance to the amendments. Both are important.
  • About your outside points: 1. Puppy pens are not good unless you put a visual barrier around the bottom. I will link some ideas for you below. 2. It doesn't matter when you buy them. This species is very adaptable and they are not bother all that much by moving and new enclosures. 3. You will need a secure fence around your tortoises eventual outside enclosure when the snow melts. Domestic dogs are probably the single biggest killer of small tortoises.
  • I prefer to leave mine alone in their enclosure and just pull them out for soaks daily, but with sulcatas, it is usually okay to handle them more. If appetite and activity remain good and unchanged, then handle your new pet as much as you like.
  • As you are seeing first hand, that non-sense you always read about glass enclosures is… well… non-sense. I, and many others have been using them for decades with 100's of babies and never and issue. They are actually good for all the reasons they falsely claim they are bad. Reduced ventilation? Good! My warm humid air will stay where I want it, INSIDE the enclosure!
  • I think is intermittent appetite is due to the cold temps. This should improve with warmer temps.
  • I feed hatchlings whole leaves. I find they have an easier time tearing off bite size chunks when they have the weigh and drag of the whole leaf to pull against. Other people chop it up. Either way works due to that sulcata adaptability.
  • Yes! I read the whole thing!
Here is that care info:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Enclosure ideas for sunning the baby:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cheap-easy-simple-sunning-enclosure.14680/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/simple-sunning-enclosure.104351/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...table-but-safe-outdoor-baby-enclosures.30683/

Hit me with all your questions after reading this.
I'm having trouble finding a majority of the plants you mentioned in stores around me.. the wheat grass and cilantro is do-able. And obviously the zoo-med stuff. Are the more common greens I mentioned reasonable in small portions occasionally?
 

Maro2Bear

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Oh, hello tom ^_^
Ive been working on making a list to what I need. I have a larger tank that I will move him into when I have the supplies that he needs (I'm thinking an undertank heat pad, a bark/coconut fiber mix substrate, heat lamp, etc.) I wish I would have got that stuff before getting him, but I feel UVB and 70-75 degree temps aswell as good humidity could sustain, at least until I can get my larger tank setup. I feel like if I don't have my heater it would be even harder to manage temp in the larger one.


  • Hey Damien, your 70-75 temps are just too cold for a hatchling Sully. Minimum ambient should be 80-85.
  • 70F with higher humidity is going to cause respiratory , digestive and other issues.
Hope this helps.
 

Damien Szkatulski

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  • Hey Damien, your 70-75 temps are just too cold for a hatchling Sully. Minimum ambient should be 80-85.
  • 70F with higher humidity is going to cause respiratory , digestive and other issues.
Hope this helps.
Hmm.. I'm going to test something. No matter what I do, the thermometer is always DIRECTLY in the same spot. I'm going to put it in the freezer and see if it changes. If it does, then I have a very steady(but not good, I know) temperature
 

Maro2Bear

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Would a undertank heater fix this?

Damien, i'll let @Tom provide you with his professional expert advice on this. I do know from reading everything on here, that under tank heater for torts/hatchlings isnt natural and not recommended.
  • I do know that some people have used under tank heaters with success. That said, the CHE hooked via a thermostat is the tried and proven way to maintain day/night ambient temps. Why re-invent the wheel?
Over to Tom!
 

Damien Szkatulski

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Nope
Damien, i'll let @Tom provide you with his professional expert advice on this. I do know from reading everything on here, that under tank heater for torts/hatchlings isnt natural and not recommended.
  • I do know that some people have used under tank heaters with success. That said, the CHE hooked via a thermostat is the tried and proven way to maintain day/night ambient temps. Why re-invent the wheel?
Over to Tom!
I have experience using CHEs and they used to burn out a lot, like, weekly. Is this normal, or preventable? That is why I was stearing away from them.
 

Big Charlie

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Nope

I have experience using CHEs and they used to burn out a lot, like, weekly. Is this normal, or preventable? That is why I was stearing away from them.
If they burn out, you must be doing something wrong. I've never had a CHE fail on me. They last forever. It is possible your fixture was the problem.
 

Tom

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Nope

I have experience using CHEs and they used to burn out a lot, like, weekly. Is this normal, or preventable? That is why I was stearing away from them.
I think you are referring to MVBs (Mercury Vapor Bulbs). CHEs don't burn out very often. I've used a dozen of them over decades and never had a single one burn out. I've got one that has been in continuous use since 1991 and still working perfectly.

This is a CHE:
http://www.lllreptile.com/products/36-zoo-med-150-watt-ceramic-heater

They emit heat but no light, and you need a thermostat to turn it on and off automatically and maintain the temperature you set.

Under tank heaters should not be used with tortoises. Too much risk.
 

Tom

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Yeah it might have been different but it wasn't similar. I think it wasn't the light type,but the actual fixture

Either CHEs or MVBs have to be used in the correct type of fixture. You need a ceramic based fixture with a large dome and the cord needs to be of the correct gauge of wire.
 

Damien Szkatulski

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Either CHEs or MVBs have to be used in the correct type of fixture. You need a ceramic based fixture with a large dome and the cord needs to be of the correct gauge of wire.
If I were to buy a fixture advertised as a CHE would that be likely to work? I'll do some research on the light specifics
 

Tom

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Because I've seen that 18 inches away from the floor, 100 watts should be 100ish degrees. But I believe you said you use 65s.(I may be making the 65 thing up in my head as I can't find the post)

Only your thermometer can answer that question. I use 65 watt floods in my 4x8' closed chamber, so it might be too much for a 10 gallon or a 60 gallon too. Use your digital thermometer and adjust the height of the bulb to get the correct basking temp under it.

4 elements to lighting and heating:
1. The flood bulbs mentioned above. Put it on a timer for 12-13 hours a day. Make sure its about 100 under it.
2. Ambient temperature maintenance. Use a 100 of 150 watt CHE in the correct hood and run it through a thermostat. Keep ambient above 80 all the time.
3. Extra "day" light, if needed. I like to run a 5000-6500K florescent tube to brighten up the place and make it look more like the day time outside. This one can ru on the same timer as the basking bulb.
4. UV, if needed. If you live in Phoenix, Miami or Los Angeles, you really don't need indoor UV since your tortoise can get real sun all year round. In Ohio, you'll need a UV tube. Don't get the cfl types. Get a long tube. I like the Arcadia 12% or 10% HO tubes. They make strong UV, so best to use a meter to get the correct mounting height. Should be about 20-22" for these strong bulbs. If you are mounting the bulb closer than that, get a different type.
 

Damien Szkatulski

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Only your thermometer can answer that question. I use 65 watt floods in my 4x8' closed chamber, so it might be too much for a 10 gallon or a 60 gallon too. Use your digital thermometer and adjust the height of the bulb to get the correct basking temp under it.

4 elements to lighting and heating:
1. The flood bulbs mentioned above. Put it on a timer for 12-13 hours a day. Make sure its about 100 under it.
2. Ambient temperature maintenance. Use a 100 of 150 watt CHE in the correct hood and run it through a thermostat. Keep ambient above 80 all the time.
3. Extra "day" light, if needed. I like to run a 5000-6500K florescent tube to brighten up the place and make it look more like the day time outside. This one can ru on the same timer as the basking bulb.
4. UV, if needed. If you live in Phoenix, Miami or Los Angeles, you really don't need indoor UV since your tortoise can get real sun all year round. In Ohio, you'll need a UV tube. Don't get the cfl types. Get a long tube. I like the Arcadia 12% or 10% HO tubes. They make strong UV, so best to use a meter to get the correct mounting height. Should be about 20-22" for these strong bulbs. If you are mounting the bulb closer than that, get a different type.

Temperatures are a gradient of a bit under 100 and 80 from right to left. Substrate is a small layer of aspen and coconut choir under it. Moved him into my large tank. He eats fresh weeds, spring blend, and a bit of kale (because he doesn't eat stuff that doesn't have a bit of kale on it. I'll work on that) Sprinkled with a pinch of D3 and calcium. Humidity is 80 and he sleeps in a 95 hide. Am I slightly less nit pickable? He spends most of the day alternating between running around the enclosure and eating, and peeking out of his hide.
 

Tom

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Temperatures are a gradient of a bit under 100 and 80 from right to left. Substrate is a small layer of aspen and coconut choir under it. Moved him into my large tank. He eats fresh weeds, spring blend, and a bit of kale (because he doesn't eat stuff that doesn't have a bit of kale on it. I'll work on that) Sprinkled with a pinch of D3 and calcium. Humidity is 80 and he sleeps in a 95 hide. Am I slightly less nit pickable? He spends most of the day alternating between running around the enclosure and eating, and peeking out of his hide.

The coir needs to be damp. You can't keep aspen shavings damp, and aspen alone is far too dry. Coir works but its too messy for sulcatas. I've tried it and I don't like it. Fine grade orchid bark works better.

The rest is sounding pretty good.

You said he sleeps in a "95 hide". Is that temperature or humidity percentage? If that is humidity, its great. If that is the temperature, its too hot.
 

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