Odd friendship ?

[mollydee]

My last post of my leopard & sulcata posing in a toy boxing ring got a few comments about them actually fighting / not housing them together . I always thought their friendship was a little odd but I also love it soo . I figured that it won't last forever & their companionship would change as they grow & develop .

They are housed on the same large tortoise table but separated. They both have their own stuff (hides food soaks lights etc) but when given the chance they seem to love to be around each other .

Is this odder then I think ???

Here are a few examples of them when the divider is taken away



Here is when it's up

 

[ascott]

You need a much taller divider dear

Please understand, what you are seeing is not friendship (this is a human word) Tortoise are solitary animals, period. What you will end up with is a tort that is ill due to stress from being paired up with the other tort...in a pair there is ALWAYS the dominant and this leaves them one to be submissive (don't equate this in human terms, don't)

On top of pairing being an unhealthy thing, you have a species here (sulcata) that is usually the aggressor, tenacious, confident to an extreme vs a tort species that can have some of those characters as well, but no where near the same extreme....

Understand, we humans would love it if they would "all just get along"...but that is not their make up...they have no purpose to make friends and hang out for fun, just not going to happen.

Tortoise are designed to run across one another in general areas (where tortoise areas overlap one another) for the purpose of mating...that is it. When the business transaction is done and the deposit it made, they will ram each other, bite at each other and scramble on back away from one another....if males encounter one another there is not need for niceties as there is not going to be any mating happening---no babies to be made by two males...so they will either fight a bit or one will run off from the other...females will encounter each other as less of a threat, they don't generally fight as there is no reason, nothing to prove and to business to perform....
But understand that in each of these scenarios there is an exit, a way for them to retreat and flee the scene, when we force captive situations the way for them to retreat and flee has been removed...hence one must become submissive (which can lead to the submissive one becoming ill and dying, simple as that---no need to sugar coat it).

So, while you think your torts are the exception to the general rule, I wish it were the case but would bet it not to truly be the case, I mean if you observe them and their behavior as raw, which is what it is...you may see a difference....

 

[Yvonne G]

I know it goes against what most on here advise, but I'm a believer that hatchlings do better in groups. I always keep tortoise hatchlings together before either adopting them out (rescues) or selling them (babies from my own tortoises).

I have learned that a baby that doesn't eat or move around much, does much better when there's another baby of the same species and size put in with him. I attribute it to the 'competition for the food' thing.

 

[mollydee]

You need a much taller divider dear

Please understand, what you are seeing is not friendship (this is a human word) Tortoise are solitary animals, period. What you will end up with is a tort that is ill due to stress from being paired up with the other tort...in a pair there is ALWAYS the dominant and this leaves them one to be submissive (don't equate this in human terms, don't)

On top of pairing being an unhealthy thing, you have a species here (sulcata) that is usually the aggressor, tenacious, confident to an extreme vs a tort species that can have some of those characters as well, but no where near the same extreme....

Understand, we humans would love it if they would "all just get along"...but that is not their make up...they have no purpose to make friends and hang out for fun, just not going to happen.

Tortoise are designed to run across one another in general areas (where tortoise areas overlap one another) for the purpose of mating...that is it. When the business transaction is done and the deposit it made, they will ram each other, bite at each other and scramble on back away from one another....if males encounter one another there is not need for niceties as there is not going to be any mating happening---no babies to be made by two males...so they will either fight a bit or one will run off from the other...females will encounter each other as less of a threat, they don't generally fight as there is no reason, nothing to prove and to business to perform....
But understand that in each of these scenarios there is an exit, a way for them to retreat and flee the scene, when we force captive situations the way for them to retreat and flee has been removed...hence one must become submissive (which can lead to the submissive one becoming ill and dying, simple as that---no need to sugar coat it).

So, while you think your torts are the exception to the general rule, I wish it were the case but would bet it not to truly be the case, I mean if you observe them and their behavior as raw, which is what it is...you may see a difference....

Yes we have a much taller divider ! It only took us finding esquat flipped once to replace it with one he could not attempt to climb , adventurous sulcata baby made me a nervous wreck !

Thinking like a human (not research) is what led me to house them separately . Thinking I would not want to share a bedroom especially one I couldn't leave whenever I wanted so why would I do that to them !

It is so hard not to personify their actions though - especially when they are so full of "personality"

---

I know it goes against what most on here advise, but I'm a believer that hatchlings do better in groups. I always keep tortoise hatchlings together before either adopting them out (rescues) or selling them (babies from my own tortoises).

I have learned that a baby that doesn't eat or move around much, does much better when there's another baby of the same species and size put in with him. I attribute it to the 'competition for the food' thing.

They were both housed with others prior to living with us now they are house separately - but they both eat fine no worries there . They are eating us out of house and home !

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I, like Yvonne do like keeping the baby Leopards together. But in groups of 3 or more not in a pair.

When you see your 2 gravitate towards each other, it isn't for friendly companionship. It's for asserting dominance or to battle over "the goods". Battle doesn't always mean biting or ramming.

It would be a better sign if the 2 Torts in question stayed apart and each did their own thing when they were together.

 

[Tom]

Your very first picture demonstrates the animosity taking place. The sulcata is right in the leopards face, attempting to intimidate him out of the hide and out of the territory.

 

[mollydee]

I, like Yvonne do like keeping the baby Leopards together. But in groups of 3 or more not in a pair.

When you see your 2 gravitate towards each other, it isn't for friendly companionship. It's for asserting dominance or to battle over "the goods". Battle doesn't always mean biting or ramming.

It would be a better sign if the 2 Torts in question stayed apart and each did their own thing when they were together.

They are my only two . Their actions definitely differ sometimes they gravitate towards each other sometimes they do there own thing. Put together on the table they tend to eat / sleep together but go about there own thing besides those two activities although one time they did sun on the same flat rock .

I guess what I need to know is are even these short times of supervised contact bad for their Health& happiness ?

 

[Tom]

I know it goes against what most on here advise, but I'm a believer that hatchlings do better in groups. I always keep tortoise hatchlings together before either adopting them out (rescues) or selling them (babies from my own tortoises).

I have learned that a baby that doesn't eat or move around much, does much better when there's another baby of the same species and size put in with him. I attribute it to the 'competition for the food' thing.

A group of the same species is certainly different than a pair made up of two different species, isn't it?

 

[ascott]

The sulcata is right in the leopards face, attempting to intimidate him out of the hide and out of the territory.

Agree...the sulcata will more times than not---be the tenacious adventurous/aggressor of the two.....

I guess what I need to know is are even these short times of supervised contact bad for their Health& happiness ?
Posted by Tom - Today 12:21 PM

I think I am confused by what exactly this would involve...I mean, if the bullying is intimidation then you will likely not outwardly notice it until it has progressed to action...the action is what you will see and not the intimidation leading to the action itself...you see, the intimidation is the silent moment that places the action in motion...once this has taken place and the action starts you have missed the opportunity to remove the intimidation....I don't ever understand what this means, I mean do you mean you will physically remove the tort from the others path a bunch of times while supervised? If so that is still prolonged intimidation...and the tort being removed will become very tenacious and possible set on it...

I just sense here that you are determined to force the two to share the same space because you can not truly imagine that the two cute "cuddly" torts have any other motives outside of what you feel? Just saying.

 

[mollydee]

The sulcata is right in the leopards face, attempting to intimidate him out of the hide and out of the territory.

Agree...the sulcata will more times than not---be the tenacious adventurous/aggressor of the two.....

I guess what I need to know is are even these short times of supervised contact bad for their Health& happiness ?
Posted by Tom - Today 12:21 PM

I think I am confused by what exactly this would involve...I mean, if the bullying is intimidation then you will likely not outwardly notice it until it has progressed to action...the action is what you will see and not the intimidation leading to the action itself...you see, the intimidation is the silent moment that places the action in motion...once this has taken place and the action starts you have missed the opportunity to remove the intimidation....I don't ever understand what this means, I mean do you mean you will physically remove the tort from the others path a bunch of times while supervised? If so that is still prolonged intimidation...and the tort being removed will become very tenacious and possible set on it...

I just sense here that you are determined to force the two to share the same space because you can not truly imagine that the two cute "cuddly" torts have any other motives outside of what you feel? Just saying.

Well for one just to clear any confusion . They do not share the same space . They are as above stated in separate sections on a large table with little to no contact .

My question about short times of supervised contact - wondering because we are starting a tortoise garden / outside enclosure . Because of their size and the area they will only be in the outside enclosed area when we are around . I was really just wondering if it is necessary to have two separate sections for this specifically . Any insight?

 

[mollydee]

Instead of going back to the drawing board on the design aspect of the enclosure I'm hoping small separating fence or wall will suffice ?

 

[wellington]

You will make it easier on them and yourself to make two enclosures outside for them as well. Yes, it can be one big enclosure with a wall that they can not see through or over separating them.

 

[mollydee]

You will make it easier on them and yourself to make two enclosures outside for them as well. Yes, it can be one big enclosure with a wall that they can not see through or over separating them.

Thanks ! Thought I had everything all planned out . Looks like I'll be making a post for more insight on the enclosure - I'd rather get advice before doing it than build & then fix problems after .

 

[wellington]

Bricks or cinder blocks would make a good divider. Just make it tall enough they can't see each other. Then as they grow, you just have to add another layer or so.

 

[Saleama]

You will make it easier on them and yourself to make two enclosures outside for them as well. Yes, it can be one big enclosure with a wall that they can not see through or over separating them.

Thanks ! Thought I had everything all planned out . Looks like I'll be making a post for more insight on the enclosure - I'd rather get advice before doing it than build & then fix problems after .

Make sure your enclosure is fairly large as they will grow very fast and it should be a simple matter of deviding it on the inside with some nice looking wall. I have seen many outdoor areas set up in such a way that the entire thing looks like one big garden but the torts actually have their own areas. The pictures of the Cove on here are like that and I know Tortadise (Kelly Hull in North Texas) has a beautiful set up that is very much like a zoo where all the animals are seperate but done in such a way that it is very functional and pleasing to the eye.

 

[mollydee]

You will make it easier on them and yourself to make two enclosures outside for them as well. Yes, it can be one big enclosure with a wall that they can not see through or over separating them.

Thanks ! Thought I had everything all planned out . Looks like I'll be making a post for more insight on the enclosure - I'd rather get advice before doing it than build & then fix problems after .

Make sure your enclosure is fairly large as they will grow very fast and it should be a simple matter of deviding it on the inside with some nice looking wall. I have seen many outdoor areas set up in such a way that the entire thing looks like one big garden but the torts actually have their own areas. The pictures of the Cove on here are like that and I know Tortadise (Kelly Hull in North Texas) has a beautiful set up that is very much like a zoo where all the animals are seperate but done in such a way that it is very functional and pleasing to the eye.

Thanks.I definitely want it to look nice . I'll definitely check out those others if I can find them on here . I like looking at others peoples set ups for inspiration . I think we are going to do a half circle shaped enclosure so we can use the fence as the back wall - and have separate sections for both torts with each plant available to both of them (can't be unfair) it will be fairly small as we will only need it for this summer and possibly next . Definitely want to include a hide - in ground soak & some flat sunning rocks . Hoping for good weather this weekend to get started !