Orchid bark saga

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello folks! Hope everyone is well😁

I’m writing this because I’m very intrigued to get some input/information on where to research more into this.

Last month a comment made on the forum to the effect of “Have you definitely got orchid fir bark, not pine, because they can be marketed as the same in the uk” really peaked my concern being from the uk myself. I’ve always know to be cautious not to buy a pine based substrate and the brands we’ve used previously, pro rep(s very reputable brand in the uk) and habistat orchid bark has never been listed as such so I never had any concerns, there were times we had to order a bulk bag off of Amazon, at the time they didn’t have pine in the title and when it arrived, it smelt, felt and looked the exact same as the branded stuff. I’d describe the odour as quite strong when first arriving, however within a few days it’s gone.

Our bark is not made of Douglas fir here in the uk, it’s far more expensive to get in Europe, I had no idea that was the case at the time, but something in my gut always made me want to stay clear of the stuff they sell in the garden centres here.

We got our red foot into a big new upgrade a good few months ago now, we need roughly 140L to fill the set up, so naturally we re purchased two 70L bulk bags from Amazon.
After seeing that comment on the forum, it peaked my concern, when I went back to the listing we used I could see they’d added ‘pine’ in the title, which understandably made me panic.

I reached out to both the listing and the brands we’ve used, I have yet to hear from the listing but here’s the brands responses

Habistat:

“Hi, I can’t comment on any other brands

But all of our substrates are 100% safe for animal use 😊

Our orchard bark is most likely to be from fir trees, not pine trees.
but I will chase a better answer for 100% certain on tree species

But I can 100% assure you our substrates are safe for animals 😊

I hope that helps”

I then asked about what kind of trees make the bark specifically, and what the largest is they stock

Follow up responses

“Let me ask tomorrow when I am in the office!

And I’ll see what I can do 😊

Again though our products are 100% safe and we wouldn’t dare sell them if they weren’t

I’ll be in touch as soon as I have answers 😊”


“Hi, Sorry for the late reply!

We do stock 60L bags. However, you have to ask a local shop to order that for you 😊

Orchird bark is chipped from the bark of coniferous trees. Pine trees are in this family.

The potentially dangerous side of pine is the fresh needles, which can give off phenols & aromatic hydrocarbons as well as oils which become volatile when heated up, which can lead to issues.
But if baked and dried this removes that issue 😊

The way we prepare our bark, as well as the nature of the product, makes it completely safe for reptile use 😊

I hope that helps clear things up!

Please don’t hesitate to message us if you have any further questions.”

I wasn’t entirely sure what to make of the bit about the only dangerous thing being the needles.
I’ve always recommended habistat orchid bark on here under the presumption of how reputable it is, I need to look further into the specifics of their response.

Pro rep response:

“Hello, sorry for the delay.

Thank you for your message, I have looked into this for you. Our orchid bark is made from Maritime Pine trees (Pinus pinaster) Although pine is associated with being toxic; it is only certain species of pine that can’t be used.

The maritime pine is completely safe as it does not release the same toxins/toxin levels as other trees in its family. This type of pine is commonly used for most products as you have found, hence why the one you have purchased from Amazon has the wording in its title.

Rest assured our product will not be toxic or cause ant a verse reactions to your Animals.

Thanks
ProRep Team”

All this time I do indeed think I’ve been smelling a pine smell when it first arrives now, but I’m left with questions as to whether it is indeed safe after all with how they treat it/the type they use, I’m 99.9% sure the listing we’ve ordered from is the exact same stuff, there’s literally no difference in the smell, look or feel, and the smell doesn’t last long.

One thing clear to me is that most, if not all orchid bark in the uk isn’t necessarily a fir bark, but not necessarily unsafe for reptile use either, I definitely need to do more research but I’d love to hear from you lot.

I’m understandably concerned about the substrate that is currently in with her now, like I say it takes around 140L to fill, her owner really doesn’t like coir, it’s very messy so I get that, forest floor isn’t sold in big enough bags or cost effective in the slightest😣
If either brands are indeed a safer choice than the listing, pro reps 70L are not cheap and habistat only goes up to 60L, meaning I’d get two and a 20L, if that’s my best bet I might go for that😕

The stuff in with her currently has no smell and doesn’t seem to have caused any issues what so ever the times we’ve used it, if I’m to switch it out I’m going to wait until her owner is on holiday in just over a weeks time, just so they don’t feel bad me buying the substrate, I was the one who found the listing, so I feel responsible to correct this.

I’ve included the link to the bulk listing below, if anyone minds taking a look, I’m very interested on what you all make of this!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MS77ZDV/?tag=

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Been doing some more research and there’s just so much back and forth on the subject😣

Forgive me for tagging you guys but I really want your opinions and I fear this thread may fall under the radar lol😬 @Tom @Yvonne G @wellington @Alex and the Redfoot @ZEROPILOT @zovick and of course anyone else I may have missed!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Oh and for anyone interested this is what the substrate in the enclosure looks like, as I say, there’s currently no smell to it and she’s never had/isn’t currently having any kind of negative reaction to it. This has thrown me through some loops..

 

[Tom]

I have no experience with UK orchid bark and don't know what to make of it.

I do wonder how that person is so sure that it is safe for animals. How could he/she know that? Do they keep animals of their own on it? "Safe for animals" could mean anything. If you use most products like this as mulch in your outdoor garden, as they are intended to be used, I have no doubt it would be safe for your pets to walk by it or walk on it. That doesn't mean its safe to be living on it in a warm humid closed chamber?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I have no experience with UK orchid bark and don't know what to make of it.

I do wonder how that person is so sure that it is safe for animals. How could he/she know that? Do they keep animals of their own on it? "Safe for animals" could mean anything. If you use most products like this as mulch in your outdoor garden, as they are intended to be used, I have no doubt it would be safe for your pets to walk by it or walk on it. That doesn't mean its safe to be living on it in a warm humid closed chamber?

My thoughts exactly tbh, if I’ve touched on something here, it’s a potential widespread issue considering how many people in the uk are housing their tortoises/reptiles in general, under the assumption it’s a safe orchid bark..

I’m definitely concerned and not sure how to progress, without orchid bark as an option, for the size we have, substrates are limited, they don’t like coir so that’s out😕

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Not to mention all the folks I’ve recommended the habistat orchid bark to here, I’d seen multiple other members use it before I stated recommending it and it’s a very reputable brand, had absolutely no reason to assume it might not be safe till now..

 

[wellington]

I really can't help much.
What I have found, is it is safe for reptiles, including tortoises. However, it sounds like animals, particularly dogs and cats being mentioned, should not drink water that may have pine dripping into it or like a mud puddle that has dripped from pine trees.
With the high humidity needed for tortoises, particularly RF, I think as long as there is not puddling that the tortoise can drink from, it should be safe.
Now, I also read where it breaks down faster than fir bark. This breaking down seems to be of concern too. So, to keep that harmless, it should be changed before it breaks down or at the first sign of it.
This is all from different sites I found that seemed reputable. Not places like FB, Reddit, etc, but agricultural sites and nursery's/garden centers.

 

[wellington]

I should say the sites seemed reputable as far as knowing about the pine and fir, not necessarily reptiles.

 

[wellington]

@Markw84 and @Kapidolo Farms would be good to hear from on this.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I really can't help much.
What I have found, is it is safe for reptiles, including tortoises. However, it sounds like animals, particularly dogs and cats being mentioned, should not drink water that may have pine dripping into it or like a mud puddle that has dripped from pine trees.
With the high humidity needed for tortoises, particularly RF, I think as long as there is not puddling that the tortoise can drink from, it should be safe.
Now, I also read where it breaks down faster than fir bark. This breaking down seems to be of concern too. So, to keep that harmless, it should be changed before it breaks down or at the first sign of it.
This is all from different sites I found that seemed reputable. Not places like FB, Reddit, etc, but agricultural sites and nursery's/garden centers.

She does manage to get some of the bark into her substrate sometimes so I need to remedy that somehow.

When you say breaking down, do you mean like rotting away? Or breaking up?

I honestly appreciate any input you’ve given so thank you🙏

I’m actually going to struggle what to recommend to new uk members now, some people don’t like the mess of coir, and forest floor is so expensive for the size bags

I’m not even sure what to replace squirts with when the time comes😣

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Do any of you guys happen to have experience with orchid bark here in the uk? @Cathie G @Sarah2020 @Karen(pebbles)

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

She does manage to get some of the bark into her substrate sometimes so I need to remedy that somehow.

This was supposed to say water dish🤪

 

[wellington]

She does manage to get some of the bark into her substrate sometimes so I need to remedy that somehow.

When you say breaking down, do you mean like rotting away? Or breaking up?

I honestly appreciate any input you’ve given so thank you🙏

I’m actually going to struggle what to recommend to new uk members now, some people don’t like the mess of coir, and forest floor is so expensive for the size bags

I’m not even sure what to replace squirts with when the time comes😣

It's breaking down into smaller bits, probably doing some rotting to, but it was worded as breaking down.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

It's breaking down into smaller bits, probably doing some rotting to, but it was worded as breaking down.

Right ok, good to know to keep a look out for.
I’ve seen the odd few bits of bark pieces have a little bit of mould on them near where she feeds, always put it down to odd bits of food falling on the substrate that might get missed(we do make sure to spot clean)but sometimes I’ve seen a little bit in other parts of the enclosure, any time I have, I just remove it, doesn’t seem a big issue and I figured with how high her humidity is, that it might happen here n there, just something I add into spot cleaning.
But I am worried how long the substrate will actually last vs how long you’re usually able to leave it for😕especially considering the expense for what we need..

 

[Tom]

My thoughts exactly tbh, if I’ve touched on something here, it’s a potential widespread issue considering how many people in the uk are housing their tortoises/reptiles in general, under the assumption it’s a safe orchid bark..

I’m definitely concerned and not sure how to progress, without orchid bark as an option, for the size we have, substrates are limited, they don’t like coir so that’s out😕

With such wide spread use, I would think that you would have heard something about some problem with it somewhere at some time if it were dangerous or harmful in some way.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

With such wide spread use, I would think that you would have heard something about some problem with it somewhere at some time if it were dangerous or harmful in some way.

Mmm you’d think so yes.. perhaps I’m worrying over nothing, it just very much changes everything I’ve been taught when looking at substrate..

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

With such wide spread use, I would think that you would have heard something about some problem with it somewhere at some time if it were dangerous or harmful in some way.

I was thinking about it, yet still have concerns:
1. Besides obvious irritations and respiratory symptoms, pine contains some compounds resulting in liver damage. This is true about pine shavings, haven't found if such compounds are present in bark. There are some warnings about use of pine shavings for rabbits, chickens and reptiles (e.g. at anapsid.org or reptileforums.co.uk) with more or less references to backing studies.
2. Some negative effects need time and fumes concentration to develop and if tortoise is moved outdoors or to the open table then severe damage may not happen at all.
3. It could be dependent on pine tree species. E.g. Douglas fir is in Pinaceae too and likely to have some dangerous compounds (like abietic acid) but content is probably less than in Pinus genus.
4. Most of the toxicity reports are associated with inhaling wood dust - which is less an issue when bark is moistened and stay in high humidity environment.

 

[Sarah2020]

I have used orchid bark for years and find it brilliant. In the UK I buy from 2 sources
Swell reptile
A supplier who sells pro rep bark chips
I change it out after 6 months with regular spot cleans. I take the old and put it I. Flower beds or top up the outside enclosure so no waste.

I wedge the water dish lip onto a shall rock to stop it being tipped. I use a water spritz to dampen but not saturated and every so often I remove the rocks and other enc bits and then turn the bark around in the enclosure to circulate and replenish favourite spots.

 

[Sarah2020]

Do any of you guys happen to have experience with orchid bark here in the uk? @Cathie G @Sarah2020 @Karen(pebbles)

Yes and I have responded #18.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Yes and I have responded #18.

Thank you for your input!