Pardalis or babcocki?

[EspenK]

Hi guys, is mine a pardalis or babcoki? I've studied Neils thread, but I just cant seem to find out. I know about his pyramiding, he came to me from a desert terrarium. Now he is in a "wetter" environment!

Best,

Espen

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

Your tortoise is a babcocki. The easiest way to see if your tortoise is a paradalis is the two or more dots on multiple scutes. The only way to know if your tortoise is a true paradalis is to know that the parents are true paradalis.

 

[EspenK]

Your tortoise is a babcocki. The easiest way to see if your tortoise is a paradalis is the two or more dots on multiple scutes. The only way to know if your tortoise is a true paradalis is to know that the parents are true paradalis.

Thanks! So one or none dots is a babcokci, two or more dots means pardalis?

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

For the most part yes.

 

[EspenK]

For the most part yes.

Thanks!

 

[Tom]

I agree. However, the spotted skin on the legs makes me think that it could be a hybrid. Certainly not 100% pardalis though.

 

[EspenK]

I agree. However, the spotted skin on the legs makes me think that it could be a hybrid. Certainly not 100% pardalis though.

Thanks! Not good with hybrids, I guess he'll never breed then!

 

[Neal]

I agree. However, the spotted skin on the legs makes me think that it could be a hybrid. Certainly not 100% pardalis though.

Thanks! Not good with hybrids, I guess he'll never breed then!

Are you saying he won't be able to breed, or you wouldn't want to breed him?

 

[Tom]

The last study I saw from 2010, showed 11 types of leopards throughout their enormous range. Almost all of the leopards in captivity in America are some combination of one or more of these types. I only know of a few people producing true pp, and I only know of one man producing true location specific babcocki.

It's a similar story with sulcatas.

Given the state of things, I would not hesitate to breed your "babcocki" with other "babcocki", if you so desire.

 

[DesertGrandma]

The last study I saw from 2010, showed 11 types of leopards throughout their enormous range. Almost all of the leopards in captivity in America are some combination of one or more of these types. I only know of a few people producing true pp, and I only know of one man producing true location specific babcocki.

It's a similar story with sulcatas.

Given the state of things, I would not hesitate to breed your "babcocki" with other "babcocki", if you so desire.

Hey Tom. I would be interested in the study you are referring to. Can you post a link or info to research it? Also, were there pics of the different ones they cite showing different characteristics?

 

[Neal]

Hey Tom. I would be interested in the study you are referring to. Can you post a link or info to research it? Also, were there pics of the different ones they cite showing different characteristics?

(Don't want to step on Tom's toes) - but I have the link bookmarked and read it every now and then lol, so I had it readily available.

http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2010a.pdf

Only two pictures that don't help very much, but one is of a large Ethiopian leopard so that's kind of cool.

 

[DesertGrandma]

Hey Tom. I would be interested in the study you are referring to. Can you post a link or info to research it? Also, were there pics of the different ones they cite showing different characteristics?

(Don't want to step on Tom's toes) - but I have the link bookmarked and read it every now and then lol, so I had it readily available.

http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2010a.pdf

Only two pictures that don't help very much, but one is of a large Ethiopian leopard so that's kind of cool.

Thanks Neal. I have read this article before. Didn't realize it was the same one that Tom was referring to. Sure wish they had used tort photos taken of the areas in Africa where they studied these torts so we could see the different characteristics they found. I always am amazed at the the slight differences in the photos people post on the forum, ie. fenders, light vs. dark, high domes or not, etc. Much like the peoples of the world.

---

I will read it more closely this time to determine if the article does in fact suggest what we call "true pardalis" to be of one separate type or not.

 

[EspenK]

I agree. However, the spotted skin on the legs makes me think that it could be a hybrid. Certainly not 100% pardalis though.

Thanks! Not good with hybrids, I guess he'll never breed then!

Are you saying he won't be able to breed, or you wouldn't want to breed him?

I ment I don't want to breed hybrids. But I didn't realize that most of our torts in captivity was hybrids- that is a shame! Makes me wonder if it was lack of knowledge or the lust for money that has created this.

 

[Neal]

I ment I don't want to breed hybrids. But I didn't realize that most of our torts in captivity was hybrids- that is a shame! Makes me wonder if it was lack of knowledge or the lust for money that has created this.

It was probably lack of knowledge, or just no one really cared at the time.

Even then, leopards may have been imported from certain places in Africa, but there's no guarantee that they originated from those locations. Many were collected from several different areas and regions and brought to farms where they were then imported from.

 

[EspenK]

I ment I don't want to breed hybrids. But I didn't realize that most of our torts in captivity was hybrids- that is a shame! Makes me wonder if it was lack of knowledge or the lust for money that has created this.

It was probably lack of knowledge, or just no one really cared at the time.

Even then, leopards may have been imported from certain places in Africa, but there's no guarantee that they originated from those locations. Many were collected from several different areas and regions and brought to farms where they were then imported from.

I see. So the pardalis\babcocki, at least in captivity, is actually the same?

 

[Tom]

No. Not necessarily. There are a very small number of people in the US producing true, pure pardalis pardalis. I only know of one man producing pure, location specific babcocki. Everything else is a gamble and would be really difficult to prove pure. Most of the babcocki available, the vast majority, are mixes of babcocki from all over the range. Some of these babcocki show certain traits that are characteristic of the pardalis pardalis, indicating at least some genetic influence. I know of at least two people that are knowingly interbreeding and don't seem to care. One of them is a big name breeder and he fraudulently sells some of his mixes as true pp.

 

[EspenK]

Thanks for clearing up!