Pardalis pardalis vs pardalis babcocki

[onarock]

I think what is implied by one here on the forum is that the cold tollerance is genetically based and not size based.

If I compare 2 rocks of the same material, but different sizes and heat them up to the same temp, it could be stated that the smaller one would cool faster and that has nothing to do with "gigathermy"

Well no it doesn't prove didly squat

but, it does stand to reason that a larger tortoise WILL be more cold tolerant than a smaller one. SOOOO if a 20 year old Gpp can be expected to be larger than a 20 year old Gpb AND its "smart" enough to to keep moving in order to generate some heat and keep foraging rather than just lay in a cold spot I'd consider it more cold tolerant.

I think it implies that cold tollerance between the 2 subs only applies to adults. So, if I'm reading you post correctly your stating that they have the same cold tollerance untill gpp reach 40lbs and then somehow become even more cold tollerant? This still does'nt prove that gpp are more cold tollerant.

Biologically, to the best of my knowledge, cold blooded animals are cold blooded animals, there aren't major internal differences on the cellular level between species that will allow for a major difference in temperature tolerance. There can be some anatomical differences that count though, such as blubber and size. I forget the exact term, but larger tortoise can employ something like "gigathermy" wherein they can maintain a higher core temp than ambient via activity and heat inertia. This implies that a larger pardalis will in fact be more "cold tolerant" than a typically smaller babcocki.

 

[John]

Well no it doesn't prove didly squat

but, it does stand to reason that a larger tortoise WILL be more cold tolerant than a smaller one. SOOOO if a 20 year old Gpp can be expected to be larger than a 20 year old Gpb AND its "smart" enough to to keep moving in order to generate some heat and keep foraging rather than just lay in a cold spot I'd consider it more cold tolerant.

I think it implies that cold tollerance between the 2 subs only applies to adults. So, if I'm reading you post correctly your stating that they have the same cold tollerance untill gpp reach 40lbs and then somehow become even more cold tollerant? This still does'nt prove that gpp are more cold tollerant.

Biologically, to the best of my knowledge, cold blooded animals are cold blooded animals, there aren't major internal differences on the cellular level between species that will allow for a major difference in temperature tolerance. There can be some anatomical differences that count though, such as blubber and size. I forget the exact term, but larger tortoise can employ something like "gigathermy" wherein they can maintain a higher core temp than ambient via activity and heat inertia. This implies that a larger pardalis will in fact be more "cold tolerant" than a typically smaller babcocki.

out of curiosity what excactly makes a larger tort more cold tolerant than a smaller one?

 

[John]

Mao has it right. They are VERY different in appearance, size, hardiness, cold tolerance and personality.

1. Babcocks are by far the more numerous of the two. The pp are actually pretty rare. Especially REAL ones. Lots of people claim to have true pp when they really have hybrids.
2. pp are usually around twice the price of babcocks.
3. Huge difference in personality. pp are very similar to sulcatas. Babcocks are often referred to as "pretty rocks". Don't get me wrong, I love both subspecies, but they generally have VERY different personalities.
4. I don't recommend they be housed in the same enclosure. The pp are much larger and more boisterous. A babcock could easily be intimidated and stressed. They also come from very different areas and I worry about disease and/or parasites. Lastly adults should NEVER be housed together because we do NOT need any more hybrids.
5. Diet is pretty much the same for both.

1.actually without dna testing nobody really knows what they have.the current criteria for identifying a pp is a result of the hobby playing the odds,there are several accounts of south african pp that do not have these markings.
2.is fact
3.now this statement would require that you show your work tom.how many test subjects were involved,how many different bloodlines age,sex,size and general husbandry conditions of said subjects.
4.this statement is a complete matter of opinion.the ranges of the subspecies do infact overlap,and there can infact be interbreeding in the wild.also my babcocki are far from afraid of my what has been called hybrid but is also debatable. see 1
5.this can be considered fact

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I was hoping someone might be able to provide some info about the difference between the babcocki and pardalis sub-species.

I am interested in general taxonomy, but I am also interested in husbandry experiences.

A few specifics that I am interested in:
Which are found more in the US as kept pets?
Price difference between the two as hatchlings?
Any difference in personality?
Can a babcocki and a pardalis be housed in the same enclosure?
Similar/different dietary requirements?
Etc...

Thanks.

(I believe my Leia is pardalis babcocki, but any and all opinions on this issue are welcome)

Rob

ROB, here are my opinions based on what i've read,tfo experience,conversations with members of the tortoise community and my observations of the animals I posess.
I'm not gonna use the word personality I prefer behaviour.I think its important too understand here that some of the behaviours that are desireable too pet owners would most likely lead too the demise of hatchlings in the wild,for instance a hatchling that is overactive and left itself exposed would very likely be on a predators lunch menu.therefore these "active" torts would not make it too the reproduction table.with no predators in the pet trade these animals could not only survive but become more desireable than thier less active survivalist counterparts.based on this theory behaviour differences could be seen from bloodline too bloodline.one thing I have noted in my personal animals is the rapid growth of the hybrid as apposed too babcocki,this in itself could cause a difference in behavior,a tort that grows faster may also become less secretive faster.keep in mind rob,that I don't have adults so all my observations are based on the hatchlings i actually interact with daily.As too the housing question I see no problem here but that is my personal opinion.will I house mine together as adults honestly I havn't got that far yet.anyway thats all the rambling I have for now. john

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Hey balboa what is it excactly that makes a large tortoise more cold tolerant than a smaller tortoise?

 

[John]

Well no it doesn't prove didly squat

but, it does stand to reason that a larger tortoise WILL be more cold tolerant than a smaller one. SOOOO if a 20 year old Gpp can be expected to be larger than a 20 year old Gpb AND its "smart" enough to to keep moving in order to generate some heat and keep foraging rather than just lay in a cold spot I'd consider it more cold tolerant.

I think it implies that cold tollerance between the 2 subs only applies to adults. So, if I'm reading you post correctly your stating that they have the same cold tollerance untill gpp reach 40lbs and then somehow become even more cold tollerant? This still does'nt prove that gpp are more cold tollerant.

Biologically, to the best of my knowledge, cold blooded animals are cold blooded animals, there aren't major internal differences on the cellular level between species that will allow for a major difference in temperature tolerance. There can be some anatomical differences that count though, such as blubber and size. I forget the exact term, but larger tortoise can employ something like "gigathermy" wherein they can maintain a higher core temp than ambient via activity and heat inertia. This implies that a larger pardalis will in fact be more "cold tolerant" than a typically smaller babcocki.

well brett excactly why would a larger tortoise be more cold tolerant than a smaller tortoise?

 

[Balboa]

Hey John,

The bigger tortoise is more cold tolerant because they have a lesser surface area to mass ratio. I know I said elsewhere that torts aren't rocks, but this is the closest analogy I have; a bigger rock takes longer to cool off than a smaller rock. Yes other factors of behavior and biology come into play, but this basic physical law favors the bigger tortoise.

 

[John]

Hey John,

The bigger tortoise is more cold tolerant because they have a lesser surface area to mass ratio. I know I said elsewhere that torts aren't rocks, but this is the closest analogy I have; a bigger rock takes longer to cool off than a smaller rock. Yes other factors of behavior and biology come into play, but this basic physical law favors the bigger tortoise.

yes,but a larger tortoise or rock also requires more heat.also it could be argued that the size of the animal is not as important as the body mass.A rock is dense in comparison to a tort.I could also argue that because the carapace of a tortoise works from the outside absorbing heat and transfering it too the core,a bigger surface area would also release same heat at a faster rate.A very large rock that is porous will cool faster than a smaller rock having greater density,for a developing hatchling that has not built up muscle mass yet cold can be a more serious issue than for say a yearling.this can be seen in my animals for instance,weekly they increase in weight yet there is not always a noticeable increase in overall size.also I have noticed in the field that smaller turtles in my area are active during the same time of year as the largest.the 5" Clemmys guttata will bask in 40 degree weather as will Pseudemys rubriventris at 16".both will hunker down in the mud at night or on cloudy days.I am sure there are alot of other factors that come into play but for now I have too state that I do not believe that size plays that much of a role in the cold tolerance of a tortoise,I think it cancels itself out.the larger tort can absorb more heat faster but also requires more heat and will loose same faster. just my opinion

 

[Balboa]

Hehe, All good points John, like we both said other factors come into play, but I will correct one error. There's no way a larger tort will lose heat faster.

Take a 2 inch radius circle versus a 4 inch radius circle. If I remember correctly what you do for a living I know you'll get this example.
Diameter of 2 inch radius circle = 2PiR = 2 * 3.14 * 2 = 12.56
Diameter of 4 inch radius circle = 2PiR = 2 * 3.14 * 4 = 25.12
Area of a 2 inch radius circle = PiR^2 = 3.14 * 2^2 = 12.56
Area of a 4 inch radius circle = PiR^2 = 3.14 * 4^2 = 50.24

When the circle doubled in size, its circumference doubled as well, but its area quadruples.
A 4 inch pipe doesn't just have twice the volume of a 2 inch pipe, it has 4 times the volume, etc.

Since tortoises are hemi-spherical this gives them great heat retention. Not an accident of nature.

Hope this helps

 

[John]

Hehe, All good points John, like we both said other factors come into play, but I will correct one error. There's no way a larger tort will lose heat faster.

Take a 2 inch radius circle versus a 4 inch radius circle. If I remember correctly what you do for a living I know you'll get this example.
Diameter of 2 inch radius circle = 2PiR = 2 * 3.14 * 2 = 12.56
Diameter of 4 inch radius circle = 2PiR = 2 * 3.14 * 4 = 25.12
Area of a 2 inch radius circle = PiR^2 = 3.14 * 2^2 = 12.56
Area of a 4 inch radius circle = PiR^2 = 3.14 * 4^2 = 50.24

When the circle doubled in size, its circumference doubled as well, but its area quadruples.
A 4 inch pipe doesn't just have twice the volume of a 2 inch pipe, it has 4 times the volume, etc.

Since tortoises are hemi-spherical this gives them great heat retention. Not an accident of nature.

Hope this helps

lol great point.ya just hadda pull out calculations and big words on me on my day off.without overthinkin it I would have to say that your comments lean towards my arguement that the size of a tort does not make it more cold tolerant.

 

[Balboa]

LOL sorry for the big words and calculations bud, I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to get them though, you can't fool me.

but NO it runs counter to your argument, the bigger the tort the less surface area it has (relative to volume) compared to the little one, so less heat loss, so more cold tolerant

 

[Tom]

My tortoise partner, William Espenshade, says that the tortoises from South Africa are more cold hardy because they live there, not because they're a sub species. He likened it to a spotted turtle living in Florida as opposed to the same species of spotted turtle living up near Canada. One will hibernate and one won't. Not different sub species, just due to where they happen to live.

This is exactly my point about the pp being more cold hardy. In relation to the two "types" of leopards available in the hobby, one type comes from the more tropical central Africa and the other comes from temperate Southern Africa. It occurs to me that we might all mean different things when we use the term "cold hardy". I would always consider a temperate species more cold hardy than a tropical one, which is clearly the case with our leopards. The pp in the wild are evolved and adapted so surviving sub-freezing temperatures where the babcocki are not.

 

[John]

LOL sorry for the big words and calculations bud, I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to get them though, you can't fool me.

but NO it runs counter to your argument, the bigger the tort the less surface area it has (relative to volume) compared to the little one, so less heat loss, so more cold tolerant

I say bigger tortoise with greater mass more heat needed,less cold tolerant.I wonder if it was natures mistake too put all the larger tortoises in warmer climates,and stick the poor little eastern box in the northeast?

 

[Tom]

LOL sorry for the big words and calculations bud, I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to get them though, you can't fool me.

but NO it runs counter to your argument, the bigger the tort the less surface area it has (relative to volume) compared to the little one, so less heat loss, so more cold tolerant

I say bigger tortoise with greater mass more heat needed,less cold tolerant.I wonder if it was natures mistake too put all the larger tortoises in warmer climates,and stick the poor little eastern box in the northeast?

There is an interesting trend where reptiles tend to get larger toward the equator and mammals tend to get larger toward the poles. The exceptions to this are sort of interesting, like the tegus from Southern Argentina.

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As far as I know, no one exposes their tortoises to cold temperature extremes so I'm not sure how we could find out which one is actuall "cold hardy".

Isn't this what happens in the wild in tropical vs. temperate areas? I don't think a babcocki would fare to well if it were dropped off on the tip of the Southern Cape with all the pp that live out their lives and do fine down there.

Do you remember Vince at the TTPG and his Bowsprit presentation? One of his slides was a map that showed all the areas across the globe that had the right kind of temperate climate to keep and raise Bowsprit tortoises. Southern CA was one of those areas and the climate here is pretty similar to SA.

 

[onarock]

Assuming that all babcocki imported are from tropical areas. I have it on good authority that they are not.

 

[luke]

LOL sorry for the big words and calculations bud, I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to get them though, you can't fool me.

but NO it runs counter to your argument, the bigger the tort the less surface area it has (relative to volume) compared to the little one, so less heat loss, so more cold tolerant

I say bigger tortoise with greater mass more heat needed,less cold tolerant.I wonder if it was natures mistake too put all the larger tortoises in warmer climates,and stick the poor little eastern box in the northeast?

you"re a reall squirmy guy arent you

Balboas actualy corect, if you look at it as simple heat transfer problem. Of course, OTHER FACTORS COME IN TO PLAY in the reall world, as far as actual "tort cold tolerance" goes.

The adult tort does have more surface area on its carapice than does the baby tort. However, surface area is only half the story, like balboa said the adult tort will have a much lower SURFACE AREA TO VOLUME RATIO.

Simple analogy:
I reach into the cooler and I take out two cans of coke, I then set them down and forget about them. One can, is a regular old can of coke and the other can is three feet tall. Both cans are at 30deg F and the outside air is at 90deg F. Which can do you think will will reach 90deg first?

The small one of course, the same applies with a cup of hot cocoa on a cold winter night.



I just wanted to add that the term "cold hardy" seems a little misleading to me. Wouldnt it be simpler to say that GPP prefer more cooler temps then GPBs? I mean, why do we have to call a torts "hardyness" into question here?..... LOL.

 

[onarock]

Nice post Luke. I would just ad that the comparison is that gpp are more cold hardy than gpb. If we take into consideration the size of the tortoises then one can make the argument that aldabras are more cold hardy than South African Leopards. I think the question should be when discussing this is All Things Being Equal, such as size, which is more cold hardy or which can withstand cooler temps? If were discussing the 2 regional types more prevelant in the hobby, each being roughly the same size, which is more cold hardy? What has been suggested is that the majority of gpb imported into the U.S. are from Tanzania, which is a more semi tropical region and that the gpp imported into the U.S. is from the Cape area of S.A. Taking that into consideration one could make the argument that the Cape tortoise is more cold hardy. But, if we take the entire group of pardalis and compare the sub.sp. its known that gpb also range S.A. and share much of the same range in the colder environments. Having said that, one could argue that gpb. are just as cold hardy as gpp. If we're limiting our conversation and shared knowledge on the subject by only discussing the hobby aspect then, yes, gpp are larger and more cold tollerant than gpb, but if we expand the conversaiton to include leopard tortoises as a whole then the facts say that the largest leopard tortoise in Africa is a gpb and gpb are found in the much of the same areas as the gpp leopards and thus will be as cold hardy. I will say this... I have been told by a reliable source that gpb were also imported into this country from S.A. as well. Probably not even close to the same numbers, but they are here.

 

[John]

you"re a reall squirmy guy arent you

well seeing how you have chosen too enter a friendly debate between friends on a sarcastic note,and have chosen too not add a thought of your own,you simply chose too echo brett's response,who I assure you needs no help.your post really warrants no response from me,but why don't you try your little soda experiment and when you find that if both volumes are the same diameter containing the same liquid all other parameters are the same barring one is taller then the other,they will both reach the same temp at the same time.let us know

 

[luke]

you"re a reall squirmy guy arent you

well seeing how you have chosen too enter a friendly debate between friends on a sarcastic note,and have chosen too not add a thought of your own,you simply chose too echo brett's response,who I assure you needs no help.your post really warrants no response from me,but why don't you try your little soda experiment and when you find that if both volumes are the same diameter containing the same liquid all other parameters are the same barring one is taller then the other,they will both reach the same temp at the same time.let us know

Yes I am quite squirmy.

I didnt mean to bud into somones friendly "debate", I just noticed that the "arguments" you were making were bogus, I thoght I'd throw in my two cents for all the readers who may not recognize that your claims were false. I wasnt trying to condecend you or imply that Bret needed my help in handling you. I just wanted to second his position and offer a simple analogy. I meant no offense.

 

[John]

you"re a reall squirmy guy arent you

well seeing how you have chosen too enter a friendly debate between friends on a sarcastic note,and have chosen too not add a thought of your own,you simply chose too echo brett's response,who I assure you needs no help.your post really warrants no response from me,but why don't you try your little soda experiment and when you find that if both volumes are the same diameter containing the same liquid all other parameters are the same barring one is taller then the other,they will both reach the same temp at the same time.let us know

Yes I am quite squirmy.

I didnt mean to bud into somones friendly "debate", I just noticed that the "arguments" you were making were bogus, I thoght I'd throw in my two cents for all the readers who may not recognize that your claims were false. I wasnt trying to condecend you or imply that Bret needed my help in handling you. I just wanted to second his position and offer a simple analogy. I meant no offense.

luke your simple analogy suggests that if you took 5 or more cans of soda and stacked some vertically next too a single can the stacked ones would some how cange temperature at a different rate,is that not bogus and false?

 

[luke]

Nice post Luke. I would just ad that the comparison is that gpp are more cold hardy than gpb. If we take into consideration the size of the tortoises then one can make the argument that aldabras are more cold hardy than South African Leopards. I think the question should be when discussing this is All Things Being Equal, such as size, which is more cold hardy or which can withstand cooler temps? If were discussing the 2 regional types more prevelant in the hobby, each being roughly the same size, which is more cold hardy? What has been suggested is that the majority of gpb imported into the U.S. are from Tanzania, which is a more semi tropical region and that the gpp imported into the U.S. is from the Cape area of S.A. Taking that into consideration one could make the argument that the Cape tortoise is more cold hardy. But, if we take the entire group of pardalis and compare the sub.sp. its known that gpb also range S.A. and share much of the same range in the colder environments. Having said that, one could argue that gpb. are just as cold hardy as gpp. If we're limiting our conversation and shared knowledge on the subject by only discussing the hobby aspect then, yes, gpp are larger and more cold tollerant than gpb, but if we expand the conversaiton to include leopard tortoises as a whole then the facts say that the largest leopard tortoise in Africa is a gpb and gpb are found in the much of the same areas as the gpp leopards and thus will be as cold hardy. I will say this... I have been told by a reliable source that gpb were also imported into this country from S.A. as well. Probably not even close to the same numbers, but they are here.

^^now there is a good post.

I admit I havent read a great deal on the subject but everything you said here sounds reasonable. I still want to get my hands on a GPP, I'd love to have one some day.

Do you know if the S.A. Babcocks look the same as the Tanzania ones? Or is there noticible behavior differences like more burrowing?

 

[John]

Do you know if the S.A. Babcocks look the same as the Tanzania ones? Or is there noticible behavior differences like more burrowing?

lol now this is what this thread and debate is really about.