Poppy and Buttercups?

[Brewster320]

I'm somewhat confused as poppy and buttercups are listed as toxic plants that should be avoided but according to studies of russian tortoise diet in the wild both these families of plants are said to major parts of their diet. So whats the deal? Are there any other plants that are listed as toxic but really aren't or is there something I'm missing?

Also on a side note, are there any climbing vines that are tortoise safe? I can't seem to find any.

 

[wellington]

Check out if they are safe on the tortoiselibrary.com and the tortoisetable.org, because I can't help you

 

[Brewster320]

I had checked the tortoise table already and thats what threw me off. Also daises were another one that make up a bulk of wild russian diets but is evidently toxic?

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

My understanding is as follows, poppy is no good with the exception of the California Poppy. As for buttercups, the information I have shows it as toxic, with some observations of parasite loaded russians eating it as a self medication. I allow California poppies to grow freely in both my russian and sulcata outdoor habitats. The wild buttercups we have up here I pull out of the sulcata enclosure but I do allow a few to grow with the russians. Any blooms are picked before a tortoise has a chance to consume them as this was the specific source of the mentioned poisoning and subsequent death of the tortoise.

 

[Brewster320]

Thats what I've come to understand as well but the data from the studies confuse me because if thats what they are eating in the wild is it really toxic to them at all or are we jut basing it off of its toxicity to mammals? Heres the link to the sticky in the Russian Tort section that shows this data.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-30230.html

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I think there is speculation that a heavy gut load of parasites will encourage some russian tortoises to “self medicate" with wild buttercup. And yes, often, toxicity is based off of mammal studies.

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http://www.tortoise.org/general/poiscase.html

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This is a link to the abstract I referenced.

 

[Yvonne G]

Unless you kill a bunch of tortoises and look in their stomachs to see what they've been eating, no one really knows what wild tortoises eat. I'm assuming the wild russians eating the buttercup flowers to rid themselves of parasites is a seldom thing. I really doubt they gorge on it or eat it daily.

 

[Len B]

Also on a side note, are there any climbing vines that are tortoise safe? I can't seem to find any.
[/quote]

Boston Ivy is safe.

 

[Alan RF]

Another side on this is -What about the daisy leaves that are in the ground before the flower grows? Is it just the flower that's toxic?

 

[Brewster320]

Unless you kill a bunch of tortoises and look in their stomachs to see what they've been eating, no one really knows what wild tortoises eat. I'm assuming the wild russians eating the buttercup flowers to rid themselves of parasites is a seldom thing. I really doubt they gorge on it or eat it daily.

According too the study 2/3's of their diet during the breeding season are butter cups. After the breeding season their diet flips to where 1/3 of their diet was poppies. During both seasons though daisies made up about a third of their diet as well. So according to this study it does seem like they ate massive amounts of stuff that should have pretty much killed them according to care guides.
It also noted how they don't conflict with large mammal herbivores because they don't eat the plants the tortoises do because they are toxic to them and can kill them in large quantities while to the tortoises it caused no ill effect.
I prefer to be on the safe side and not offer these unless I could get a definite answer they were safe but I just find it odd how everyone warns how dangerous these are for torts yet supposably these are major parts of while russians diets. I hate conflicting information

Also on a side note, are there any climbing vines that are tortoise safe? I can't seem to find any.

Boston Ivy is safe.
[/quote]
Thanks!

 

[redbeef]

for annual climbing vines you could plant a vine squash or a cucumber...

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Grape vines work well too.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Here's something fun. I just did a very thorough inspection of my russians outdoor enclosure. The wild butter cut that had been growing in there has been grazed to ground level. Just thought I'd share. I'm talking about three plants that were in it and were in deep grass and missed by me this early spring.

 

[SpdTrtl]

I fed buttercups to my Rt's a few times...they loved them and did not get sick. That being said, I have never made it part of a regular diet.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Unless you kill a bunch of tortoises and look in their stomachs to see what they've been eating, no one really knows what wild tortoises eat. I'm assuming the wild russians eating the buttercup flowers to rid themselves of parasites is a seldom thing. I really doubt they gorge on it or eat it daily.

According too the study 2/3's of their diet during the breeding season are butter cups. After the breeding season their diet flips to where 1/3 of their diet was poppies. During both seasons though daisies made up about a third of their diet as well. So according to this study it does seem like they ate massive amounts of stuff that should have pretty much killed them according to care guides.
It also noted how they don't conflict with large mammal herbivores because they don't eat the plants the tortoises do because they are toxic to them and can kill them in large quantities while to the tortoises it caused no ill effect.
I prefer to be on the safe side and not offer these unless I could get a definite answer they were safe but I just find it odd how everyone warns how dangerous these are for torts yet supposably these are major parts of while russians diets. I hate conflicting information

Also on a side note, are there any climbing vines that are tortoise safe? I can't seem to find any.

Boston Ivy is safe.

Thanks!

You must be referring to the study I posted a while back (Lagarde et al. 2003):

"Article: steppe tortoise diet in the wild"
"Article: steppe tortoise diet in the wild (commentary thread)"

Yes, wild Russian tortoises consume a heckuva lot of buttercups and poppies, sometimes as much as 1/3 to 2/3 of their diet! They might eat more of these toxic plants when they're heavily infested with parasites, and less of them when they're not. The alkaloids in buttercups and poppies are known to be deadly to ungulates (sheep, cattle, horses), but they do not appear to be dangerous to Russian tortoises (Testudo horsfieldii).

Wild Greek tortoises (Testudo graeca) don't eat poppies, but they have been found to eat buttercups, although not as much as Russian tortoises do (Iftime and Iftime 2012, attached). And in America, box turtles frequently eat mushrooms that are lethal to mammals, including us.

There are several ways to figure out what an animal has eaten without disturbing it. One is to observe feeding behavior. Another is to look through the dung, either with the naked eye or with a microscope (which is what the above studies did). And a third is to match the DNA found in the dung to that of other plants and animals. In all three cases, the animals under study are not harmed. Based on the above studies, Russian tortoises, Greek tortoises, and box turtles can eat foods that would sicken other animals. Nobody is quite sure why. They may be able to detoxify the poisonous compounds in plants and mushrooms themselves, or else they may rely on the symbiotic bacteria in their gut do it for them.

I think tortoise care websites like the Tortoise Table are just trying to err on the side of caution.

Oh, and I have given my guys grape vine leaves, too, and they loved 'em!

 

[Brewster320]

Unless you kill a bunch of tortoises and look in their stomachs to see what they've been eating, no one really knows what wild tortoises eat. I'm assuming the wild russians eating the buttercup flowers to rid themselves of parasites is a seldom thing. I really doubt they gorge on it or eat it daily.

According too the study 2/3's of their diet during the breeding season are butter cups. After the breeding season their diet flips to where 1/3 of their diet was poppies. During both seasons though daisies made up about a third of their diet as well. So according to this study it does seem like they ate massive amounts of stuff that should have pretty much killed them according to care guides.
It also noted how they don't conflict with large mammal herbivores because they don't eat the plants the tortoises do because they are toxic to them and can kill them in large quantities while to the tortoises it caused no ill effect.
I prefer to be on the safe side and not offer these unless I could get a definite answer they were safe but I just find it odd how everyone warns how dangerous these are for torts yet supposably these are major parts of while russians diets. I hate conflicting information

Also on a side note, are there any climbing vines that are tortoise safe? I can't seem to find any.

Boston Ivy is safe.

Thanks!

You must be referring to the study I posted a while back (Lagarde et al. 2003):

"Article: steppe tortoise diet in the wild"
"Article: steppe tortoise diet in the wild (commentary thread)"

Yes, wild Russian tortoises consume a heckuva lot of buttercups and poppies, sometimes as much as 1/3 to 2/3 of their diet! They might eat more of these toxic plants when they're heavily infested with parasites, and less of them when they're not. The alkaloids in buttercups and poppies are known to be deadly to ungulates (sheep, cattle, horses), but they do not appear to be dangerous to Russian tortoises (Testudo horsfieldii).

Wild Greek tortoises (Testudo graeca) don't eat poppies, but they have been found to eat buttercups, although not as much as Russian tortoises do (Iftime and Iftime 2012, attached). And in America, box turtles frequently eat mushrooms that are lethal to mammals, including us.

There are several ways to figure out what an animal has eaten without disturbing it. One is to observe feeding behavior. Another is to look through the dung, either with the naked eye or with a microscope (which is what the above studies did). And a third is to match the DNA found in the dung to that of other plants and animals. In all three cases, the animals under study are not harmed. Based on the above studies, Russian tortoises, Greek tortoises, and box turtles can eat foods that would sicken other animals. Nobody is quite sure why. They may be able to detoxify the poisonous compounds in plants and mushrooms themselves, or else they may rely on the symbiotic bacteria in their gut do it for them.

I think tortoise care websites like the Tortoise Table are just trying to err on the side of caution.

Oh, and I have given my guys grape vine leaves, too, and they loved 'em!

Thanks for explaining all that out. It makes sense now. When I first received my tortoise, before I discovered the tortoise table list, I let her free roam outside with supervision and she would readily seek out buttercups. After I read they were poisonous I stopped letting her eat them but then I saw the study and got confused over this. Thanks for clearing that up.

Also I have grape growing in a pot but I was looking for a vine that I could potentially grow in her outdoor enclosure as a decorative piece.