Possible pyramiding between costal and marginal scutes only?

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I wonder if @cooky_luvs or @turtlesteve can add something to your question (https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/p...-and-marginal-scutes-only.215523/post-2123600)

 

[cooky_luvs]

I actually have a cherry head that has a very similar shape, I didn’t raise her, so I can’t really speak to what may have been the cause. Someone commented on it once and I may have come off defensive to them but in my mind I was like she’s so perfect otherwise it’s not something I’m worried about lol. But I can see the concern more when you’ve actually raised this guy and are seeing something come up, but I think you’ve done an excellent job overall!

I think it’s interesting that mine is also a cherry head and shows similar. None of the cherry heads I have raised myself nor any of my others I acquired at older ages have similar though. It could very well be a geographical thing but I don’t think I’ve seen it too often. Brazilian cherryheads for all their captive popularity are one of the least studied in the wild so it’s hard to say.

Alex brought up an excellent point about abrasion. They only get to be so perfectly smooth in the wild because of all of the intense abrasion that happens to their carapace, that’s how they get that bowling ball smooth look. In captivity with our best efforts we can raise them exceptionally smooth, but replicating that abrasion is really tough to accomplish. Even when we get them to grow smooth, they lack that polished look.

They don’t all end up perfect in the wild though, sometimes they have funky wonky shells. If you look on iNaturalist, you can look at lots of natural examples documented in the wild. Of course the really bad examples are the result of people keeping them captive for a while and then releasing. But there’s quite a number that aren’t that perfect bowling ball smooth we typically associate with the wild. They may have had a rough season during growth, fought sickness, etc.

I hope some more people comment that have tortoises that display similar. I’d be very interested too find out if it’s a more so a cherryhead thing.

 

[cooky_luvs]

I actually have a cherry head that has a very similar shape, I didn’t raise her, so I can’t really speak to what may have been the cause. Someone commented on it once and I may have come off defensive to them but in my mind I was like she’s so perfect otherwise it’s not something I’m worried about lol. But I can see the concern more when you’ve actually raised this guy and are seeing something come up, but I think you’ve done an excellent job overall!

I think it’s interesting that mine is also a cherry head and shows similar. None of the cherry heads I have raised myself nor any of my others I acquired at older ages have similar though. It could very well be a geographical thing but I don’t think I’ve seen it too often. Brazilian cherryheads for all their captive popularity are one of the least studied in the wild so it’s hard to say.

Alex brought up an excellent point about abrasion. They only get to be so perfectly smooth in the wild because of all of the intense abrasion that happens to their carapace, that’s how they get that bowling ball smooth look. In captivity with our best efforts we can raise them exceptionally smooth, but replicating that abrasion is really tough to accomplish. Even when we get them to grow smooth, they lack that polished look.

They don’t all end up perfect in the wild though, sometimes they have funky wonky shells. If you look on iNaturalist, you can look at lots of natural examples documented in the wild. Of course the really bad examples are the result of people keeping them captive for a while and then releasing. But there’s quite a number that aren’t that perfect bowling ball smooth we typically associate with the wild. They may have had a rough season during growth, fought sickness, etc.

I hope some more people comment that have tortoises that display similar. I’d be very interested too find out if it’s a more so a cherryhead thing.

Here’s just a quick example I grabbed from iNaturalist. This is a cherry head that you can see would otherwise be pyramided somewhat if not for all of the intense abrasion to the carapace. Give it a few more decades of wear and tear and he’ll likely look closer to the second example.

 

[cooky_luvs]

This morning I was thinking about this and realized one of my northerns (hypo) Titus has this as well. He didn’t have it when I got him, but he did experience rapid growth a while after I received him. When I first received him, he would eat nothing but Mazuri for months, it took about 10 months of tough love to get him to eat other foods. Now he eats great and eats everything. So basically he had a big change in care when he came to live with me, maybe that had an impact. When I got him vs more recent.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

This morning I was thinking about this and realized one of my northerns (hypo) Titus has this as well. He didn’t have it when I got him, but he did experience rapid growth a while after I received him. When I first received him, he would eat nothing but Mazuri for months, it took about 10 months of tough love to get him to eat other foods. Now he eats great and eats everything. So basically he had a big change in care when he came to live with me, maybe that had an impact. When I got him vs more recent.

Titus is soo handsome! I wonder if someone did a research how carapace dimensions change with age and what are bone growth patterns.

 

[cooky_luvs]

Titus is soo handsome! I wonder if someone did a research how carapace dimensions change with age and what are bone growth patterns.

Not that I know of, unfortunately professional deep research for more nuanced tortoise topics seems to be very lacking. Would be great if someone did!

 

[Markw84]

Not that I know of, unfortunately professional deep research for more nuanced tortoise topics seems to be very lacking. Would be great if someone did!

The area you are talking about - sides of tortoise bottom of costals - is the last area of a tortoise for the bone to fill in. A young tortoise has large finestras (openings/gaps) between the ribs that form the sides of the shell. These openings gradually fill in with bone to make the shell a solid structure. With the finestras under the lower costals, this can take 3-4 years to fill in and a while longer to become a more solid bone. Since pyramiding is caused by the pressure the scutes place on the underlying bone, this can only happen once the bone is filled in. While the vertebrals is the normal place we see pyramiding, that occurs early in a young tortoise as the new bone there is very susceptible to the pressure of too fast a drying/curing scute. So - we commonly see tortoises with pyramiding, yet the lower costals and the costal/marginal borders are smooth. This tendency reverses once the tortoise has the fenestras filled in and a newer, "softer" bone is there - at about 2-4 years old or so.

Also - apart from "pyramding", The first few years, the whole plastron bone plate has been expanding while the sides of the tortoise is still having new bone fill in - especially the lower costal area. Tortoises like redfoot, and many others, are doming higher after about 2 years or so. This difference in growth patterns between the sides and the plastron, would, in my opinion, possibly cause the look you are discussing here.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thank you, Mark! Always a pleasure to read your posts!