Pyramiding

[Yvonne G]

Towards the first of this year one leopard egg hatched. It was a very early hatch, as the rest of the clutch didn't hatch until a month later. I set "Leonard" up in a plastic tub that was draped all over with sheet plastic. I kept the substrate WET. Leonard lived in a swamp. He started to pyramid, even though he was in a closed chamber of sorts. I didn't think to take a "pyramiding" picture, but you can sort of see his bumps in the only early picture I have:



A couple weeks later my tortoise partner brought me a Vision Cage that he wasn't using. I moved Leonard over to the Vision Cage, where he has been living since the end of March (maybe April - my memory's shot). Here's Leonard's bumpy shell as of this a.m.:



It's only been a little over a month in the closed chamber and he's already noticeably smoother than he was. Just another testimonial to the "Closed Chamber" idea.

 

[Tom]

I've had similar experiences. "Improvised" closed chambers have not worked as well for me as a real closed chamber.

I've also found that using lower wattage basking bulbs, which is necessary in a closed chamber, also helps reduce pyramiding. This is the main reason I stopped using and recommending MVBs.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[wellington]

I'm coming too think two things with leopards, specially Babcocki. 1-the darker they are the more they pyramid as hatchlings even in closed chamber. 2-Babcocki top scutes are the hardest to keep completely smooth.
I have three hatchlings left from my last clutch. They are now 7 months. The very dark/black one is the most pyramided and also the biggest. The next one that's not so dark is pyramided but not as bad. The third one, which is sold, is the lightest and very little pyramiding, second largest. Hatched high humidity, raised closed chamber high humidity/swamp.
The best and smoothest Babs I have seen are @Zamric who raised his two in closed chamber high humidity with daily? Vita shell?
Even pics of what are suppose to be wild ones don't seem to be perfectly smooth. Top scutes seem to always be raised whether a little or a lot.

 

[Tom]

View attachment 242388 View attachment 242388 I'm coming too think two things with leopards, specially Babcocki. 1-the darker they are the more they pyramid as hatchlings even in closed chamber. 2-Babcocki top scutes are the hardest to keep completely smooth.
I have three hatchlings left from my last clutch. They are now 7 months. The very dark/black one is the most pyramided and also the biggest. The next one that's not so dark is pyramided but not as bad. The third one, which is sold, is the lightest and very little pyramiding, second largest. Hatched high humidity, raised closed chamber high humidity/swamp.
The best and smoothest Babs I have seen are @Zamric who raised his two in closed chamber high humidity with daily? Vita shell?
Even pics of what are suppose to be wild ones don't seem to be perfectly smooth. Top scutes seem to always be raised whether a little or a lot.

What type of basking bulb have you been using? What wattage? Have you been using a real closed chamber, or an improvised open topped enclosure that is mostly covered? Bulbs and heat inside the enclosure, or on top of the enclosure? Pic?

 

[wellington]

I've had similar experiences. "Improvised" closed chambers have not worked as well for me as a real closed chamber.

I've also found that using lower wattage basking bulbs, which is necessary in a closed chamber, also helps reduce pyramiding. This is the main reason I stopped using and recommending MVBs.

Thanks for sharing!

I do think the heat/mvb even the Che's have a lot to do with it.

 

[Yvonne G]

In my improvised closed chamber I was using a 100 watt MVB. But in the Vision Cage, it's a tube type fluorescent with a RHP as the lid of the shelter. I set the temperature control down to 75F at night and move it back up to 80F during the day.

 

[Yvonne G]

I do think the heat/mvb even the Che's have a lot to do with it.

I have a young YF in an improvised closed chamber with a tube type fluorescent bulb and a 25 watt CHE. It stays nice and warm in there, but the tortoise is always trying to escape. I'm trying different things to see if I can make it more comfortable.

 

[wellington]

What type of basking bulb have you been using? What wattage? Have you been using a real closed chamber, or an improvised open topped enclosure that is mostly covered? Bulbs and heat inside the enclosure, or on top of the enclosure? Pic?

The bulb is the wicked 100w mvb but I have the majority of it over a clay hide. They can't really bask right under the hottest part of it. Two 100 wChe's on a thermostat makes up the rest of the heat. It's a similar closed chamber to Yvonne's original one. Tub with plastic over it. All heat/lights inside.
However, if the humidity is always high, I'm not sure what the difference a "real" or "fudged" closed chamber would make.

 

[wellington]

If I were still having eggs/hatchlings, I would make a closed chamber that is totally heated from the outside of the enclosure. The only heat/light that would actually be hanging over the torts would be a tube flourescent uvb light. The heat would all be from outside the closed chamber. My idea was to put the closed chamber pictured above inside a heated greenhouse in my basement. This way no direct heat at all. The basking would be to make one end the basking temp.
It might be harder in my area too because of our winters. We need so much more added heat because we don't heat our homes to 80. Mine is 70 day, 65-68 at night.

 

[Yvonne G]

My Vision Cage is heated by a radiant heat panel. The panel sits on two bricks, so the tortoises can go under the panel into the hiding place it makes. However, they never go in there. The temperature probe is inside the hiding place, and it's set to 80-85F for day and 75F for night. But the fluorescent tube light puts out an awful lot of heat. You can find the tortoises directly under that light most of the time.

 

[Sterant]

I have never tried this with leopard tortoises, but for my radiated tortoises, I use a close chamber in a heated room (so no heating elements inside the chamber) and I run 1 UVB tube and a 6500K tube inside the chamber. No basking light at all. The tortoises are as smooth as can be. Now I do see them "basking" under the fluorescent tubes sometimes, so in essence they do have a basking source, but only the fluorescent tubes.

 

[Markw84]

The bulb is the wicked 100w mvb but I have the majority of it over a clay hide. They can't really bask right under the hottest part of it. Two 100 wChe's on a thermostat makes up the rest of the heat. It's a similar closed chamber to Yvonne's original one. Tub with plastic over it. All heat/lights inside.
However, if the humidity is always high, I'm not sure what the difference a "real" or "fudged" closed chamber would make.

The big difference always seems to be about the way the lights have jury-rigged to be installed. Especially the basking MVB or incandescent. Those bulbs get very hot and are designed for some ventilation/air flow around the bulb. They create a very effective "chimney effect" to do this. That will allow for the slightest opening to become an extremely effective draft that will pull air out of the enclosure. This also creates a very drying effect on the air and enclosure. Any draft drawing air out of an enclosure is the hottest air from the enclosure. It has to be replaced by cooler air from the room that is then drawn in through any gaps anywhere in the enclosure. This cooler air, when heated experiences a dramatic drop in humidity (relative humidity).

Even a poorly insulated (or certainly uninsulated) enclosure has a related problem with the difference in temperatures from the walls of the enclosure to the heat source/basking bulbs. A convection current creates a cycle of air flow that draws the cooler air to the heat as the heated air rises - lowering the humidity/drying the air constantly.

Add all this to the drying effects of the IR and we have an environment much more air-flow active and drying than a tortoise would experience in the wild, tucked in a nice secure resting place.

 

[Tom]

The big difference always seems to be about the way the lights have jury-rigged to be installed. Especially the basking MVB or incandescent. Those bulbs get very hot and are designed for some ventilation/air flow around the bulb. They create a very effective "chimney effect" to do this. That will allow for the slightest opening to become an extremely effective draft that will pull air out of the enclosure. This also creates a very drying effect on the air and enclosure. Any draft drawing air out of an enclosure is the hottest air from the enclosure. It has to be replaced by cooler air from the room that is then drawn in through any gaps anywhere in the enclosure. This cooler air, when heated experiences a dramatic drop in humidity (relative humidity).

Even a poorly insulated (or certainly uninsulated) enclosure has a related problem with the difference in temperatures from the walls of the enclosure to the heat source/basking bulbs. A convection current creates a cycle of air flow that draws the cooler air to the heat as the heated air rises - lowering the humidity/drying the air constantly.

Add all this to the drying effects of the IR and we have an environment much more air-flow active and drying than a tortoise would experience in the wild, tucked in a nice secure resting place.

Better explained than I could have!

I would also add that tents, tinfoil, plastic and other "covers" of open topped chambers don't insulate as well as a "real" closed chamber and necessitate the use of higher wattage bulbs, more bulbs, and longer run times for electric bulbs which contributes greatly the the desiccating effects of the carapace. I'm using 25-39 watt bulbs for basking in my large closed chamber now. Those are more than enough, and they desiccate the carapace immeasurably less than a MVB or CHE that needs to run all the time to keep temps up.

 

[Tom]

I have never tried this with leopard tortoises, but for my radiated tortoises, I use a close chamber in a heated room (so no heating elements inside the chamber) and I run 1 UVB tube and a 6500K tube inside the chamber. No basking light at all. The tortoises are as smooth as can be. Now I do see them "basking" under the fluorescent tubes sometimes, so in essence they do have a basking source, but only the fluorescent tubes.

I tried this with sulcatas and it didn't work well. Check it out:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/

Not exactly like your set up, but pretty similar. Let me know what you think. I'm all for trying to do it again with adjustments that you can point out. I tried this after being inspired by the @zovick radiata care sheet. It is clear that this works very well for radiata, but I couldn't make it work for sulcatas very well. They seem to need to get under a "sun" and get hotter than ambient. Share your thoughts?

 

[daniellenc]

I have no experience other than Skurt the red foot who loves to bask. His hide is always 80-82, cool end 80-82, mid cage 82-84, and under his CHE 90-94. I’m leaning towards RHP for his AP cage because despite daily soaks, a closed chamber, and swampy humidity he is pyramiding a bit. All I heard is red foots don’t bask but I can assure you mine does every morning and the CHE is to blame.

 

[wellington]

The big difference always seems to be about the way the lights have jury-rigged to be installed. Especially the basking MVB or incandescent. Those bulbs get very hot and are designed for some ventilation/air flow around the bulb. They create a very effective "chimney effect" to do this. That will allow for the slightest opening to become an extremely effective draft that will pull air out of the enclosure. This also creates a very drying effect on the air and enclosure. Any draft drawing air out of an enclosure is the hottest air from the enclosure. It has to be replaced by cooler air from the room that is then drawn in through any gaps anywhere in the enclosure. This cooler air, when heated experiences a dramatic drop in humidity (relative humidity).

Even a poorly insulated (or certainly uninsulated) enclosure has a related problem with the difference in temperatures from the walls of the enclosure to the heat source/basking bulbs. A convection current creates a cycle of air flow that draws the cooler air to the heat as the heated air rises - lowering the humidity/drying the air constantly.

Add all this to the drying effects of the IR and we have an environment much more air-flow active and drying than a tortoise would experience in the wild, tucked in a nice secure resting place.

I understand totally what your saying. However, if the humidity still reads high, never below 80, usually between 80-85 under mvb, how would the air exchange affect them? I read my temps and humidity under the basking light against the wall of enclosure. Sorry, only puts photo at the top.
Anyway, it's reading 91T 83H. The holes at the top the rope holding light/Che is covered with tin foil from the inside so the plastic can't melt. The opening where I get in to feed, water, etc, is over lapped and then another piece of plastic over that.
My very first hatched, hatchling was raised in a greenhouse. More lights/Che to keep it warm enough as it was in my basement. She too pyramided on her top scutes. The sides usually grow pretty smooth, but not those top 3 scutes.

 

[Tom]

View attachment 242409
I understand totally what your saying. However, if the humidity still reads high, never below 80, usually between 80-85 under mvb, how would the air exchange affect them? I read my temps and humidity under the basking light against the wall of enclosure. Sorry, only puts photo at the top.
Anyway, it's reading 91T 83H. The holes at the top the rope holding light/Che is covered with tin foil from the inside so the plastic can't melt. The opening where I get in to feed, water, etc, is over lapped and then another piece of plastic over that.
My very first hatched, hatchling was raised in a greenhouse. More lights/Che to keep it warm enough as it was in my basement. She too pyramided on her top scutes. The sides usually grow pretty smooth, but not those top 3 scutes.

You are running a lot of electric heat to maintain temps in an enclosure like that. Much more than you would need in a real closed chamber with walls to contain your heat and humidity. All that electric heat desiccates their carapaces and that is what is causing your pyramiding.

This is why I am continually saying to use closed chambers and not covered open topped enclosures. The results are worlds apart. I've done it both ways. I don't do it with open tops any more, and never will again, because it doesn't work. Closing in the top of an open topped enclosure is better than low humidity on rabbit pellets, but there will still be some pyramiding, as you are seeing. I learned this back with the original "End Of Pyramiding" babies. Two years after them I started using closed chambers and the results were night and day.

 

[wellington]

I see. So a closed chamber is not meant too be any enclosure you enclose, but more an insulated or thick walled enclosure that it's opening/doors is on the side not top?
I figured my pyramiding had more too do with the lights/heat, specially of the mvb, but never thought about the lack of insulation or thicker heat retaining walls playing a roll. Makes sense.

 

[wellington]

Okay, so, for those who wants to make what they are using now for a closed chamber work more like a true closed chamber, lining the outside of the enclosure with insulation should work right?

 

[Tom]

Okay, so, for those who wants to make what they are using now for a closed chamber work more like a true closed chamber, lining the outside of the enclosure with insulation should work right?

Well you've now found a method I have not tried… I don't know the answer.

In theory, if its insulated and not leaking the warm humid air out, and you need to switch to smaller bulbs so you don't over heat it, it should do the same thing, but why? Why spend all the time, effort and money trying to turn a VW bus into a high performance sports car that it will never be, instead of just buying or designing and building the right car to begin with? Much cheaper and easier and better.