Pyramiding

[Greenfingers]

We have a 2 yr old Horsfield that we’ve had for just over one yr now. I’m very conscious that her shell isn’t as smooth as I’d hope and have read the care sheet for the breed. I’m installing a uv strip light today and just waiting for the postman to deliver a thermostat (for CHE at night) which should arrive within the next hour. I’ll be getting rid of her MVB bulb as I’m sure this is drying her shell and replacing with 60w incandescent bulb for daytime heat. The substrate is a topsoil, cocoir mix and it’s damp to touch. I’m not concerned about her in general, she/he eats well, weighs 217g today and measures 87mm.
I suppose my question is can you tell if the pyramiding looks recent or do you think the changes to her shell look old. I’ve taken photos since we got him/her but I can’t tell and I really don’t want this to get worse. Her previous table was incredibly dry. I’ve ordered a plastic humid hide too which should come this week. I want tortilla to have a healthy long life so would really appreciate any advice

 

[Maggie3fan]

I am not an expert, but, yes he's pyramided, the wider yellow band at the apron is a new growth line I believe, and the growth from that point isn't bad. It sounds to me like you are doing everything I would suggest, so keep it up, careful on the diet.
I'm sure that you'll get better advice than I would give. But here's Mary Knobbins...now that's pyramiding...

 

[TeamZissou]

Welcome!

Pyramiding is caused by conditions that are too dry. You touched on it a bit when you mentioned that the MVB dries out the shell. Unfortunately, nothing can be done regarding the existing pyramiding. The good news is that if you put the tortoise into the right conditions, any new growth will be a bit smoother. It's good that the tortoise is otherwise eating well.

Here's the care sheet that talks about proper setup, temps, humidity, etc.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Greenfingers]

I am not an expert, but, yes he's pyramided, the wider yellow band at the apron is a new growth line I believe, and the growth from that point isn't bad. It sounds to me like you are doing everything I would suggest, so keep it up, careful on the diet.
I'm sure that you'll get better advice than I would give. But here's Mary Knobbins...now that's pyramiding...
View attachment 312403

I’ve just finished making the changes I’d mentioned and I think I’m happy, uv light strip now installed. I’ll change the mvb bulb over to incandescent when it goes off tonight. Mary knobbins is beautiful, what age is she?
I try as much as possible to feed wild weeds/flowers where possible but do supplement them with kale during the winter. Occasionally some cress. The weather gets cold in the UK and I struggle to offer a freshly picked wild diet consistently

 

[Maggie3fan]

I’ve just finished making the changes I’d mentioned and I think I’m happy, uv light strip now installed. I’ll change the mvb bulb over to incandescent when it goes off tonight. Mary knobbins is beautiful, what age is she?
I try as much as possible to feed wild weeds/flowers where possible but do supplement them with kale during the winter. Occasionally some cress. The weather gets cold in the UK and I struggle to offer a freshly picked wild diet consistently

She is a rescue so I really don't know how old she is, she weights 22 lbs and growing

 

[Greenfingers]

Welcome!

Pyramiding is caused by conditions that are too dry. You touched on it a bit when you mentioned that the MVB dries out the shell. Unfortunately, nothing can be done regarding the existing pyramiding. The good news is that if you put the tortoise into the right conditions, any new growth will be a bit smoother. It's good that the tortoise is otherwise eating well.

Here's the care sheet that talks about proper setup, temps, humidity, etc.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Thanks for your response. I’ve referred to the sheet for guidance on lighting, substrate, heat etc and have made more changes today hopefully to improve what I had. It doesn’t answer my question though.
My question was, is it possible to tell whether the pyramiding is old or new? We got the tortoise approx a year ago and I’m trying to provide the right environment for her/him to minimise further deformity of the shell. I guess I was looking for reassurance from the growth pattern as opposed to just following the information provided and hoping in 3 yrs when I look back, that I did the right thing.

 

[TeamZissou]

Pyramiding happens throughout the development of a tortoise basically from hatching if it's not kept in proper conditions. So, it's not like your 3 year old tortoise will be smooth one day and then a week or month later, suddenly pyramided. The only way to have a smooth tortoise is by raising it yourself from hatching (or very young) with proper conditions (regular soaks, closed chamber with high humidity, no MVB, non excessive UVB or UVA exposure etc.). Or, you need you find a reputable breeder who follows those tenets prior to sale. It's said that the first 1-2 years are really critical to ward off pyramiding. Often, after that period of time, the shape of bones inside the shell are set, there's not much that can be done.

 

[Greenfingers]

Pyramiding happens throughout the development of a tortoise basically from hatching if it's not kept in proper conditions. So, it's not like your 3 year old tortoise will be smooth one day and then a week or month later, suddenly pyramided. The only way to have a smooth tortoise is by raising it yourself from hatching (or very young) with proper conditions (regular soaks, closed chamber with high humidity, no MVB, non excessive UVB or UVA exposure etc.). Or, you need you find a reputable breeder who follows those tenets prior to sale. It's said that the first 1-2 years are really critical to ward off pyramiding. Often, after that period of time, the shape of bones inside the shell are set, there's not much that can be done.

Thanks, that’s helpful. We bought this one from a 15 yr old who decided after short of 12months to sell to fund a new mobile ?
I feel there’s this stigma to having a tortoise with pyramiding and just hoped I could minimise the risk of it progressing further. I did wonder where the new growth was ie base of scutes or top central? Maggie was if the opinion that the new growth was base of scutes and this appeared smooth which was reassuring if this is the case?
I’m feeling pleased that our table now resembles something very similar to the care sheet recommendations. Although I wish tortilla didn’t have pyramiding, we still love her to bits and hopefully she’ll long a long, happy and healthy life with us.

 

[TeamZissou]

The new growth comes at the edges of each scute.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It really is mainly cosmetic as long as there isn't any underlying bone disease or something like that. It's definitely possible to have a healthy tortoise with pyramiding, as it appears you do.

Most keepers want to try to raise a tortoise in captivity to look like the ones in the wild. It seems that for a long time it was a tough nut to crack in the tortoise hobby. Now that the cause is known, people want to spread the word. The other problem is that there's a lot of old info out there that's wrong and new keepers find and follow. Or, like the kid you bought it from, don't look anything up!

You always have the option of buying some young tortoises and raising them in the proper conditions. You can also try to sell this one. If you get more to later house with this one, you'd most likely need to get three. It's a bad idea to keep two tortoises together. Then again, you'd need a bit of room to be able to house them all as a group of four.

 

[Greenfingers]

I don’t intend to buy more, as I read on the forum all the time about people keeping multiples and having problems. I don’t want her distressed or getting injured.
In England the weather is so cold during winter and for almost 6 months of the year it’s too cold for her to go outdoors. I’m just waiting for the builder to start an extension then I’ll increase the size of her indoor table.
I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to respond and the advice you offered

 

[Sarah2020]

Yes I see pyramiding which can not change however new growth looks smooth so just keep that going,. Regular soaks,. Humidity, diet , light and heat will all help and contribute up smooth .

 

[Sarah2020]

I’ve just finished making the changes I’d mentioned and I think I’m happy, uv light strip now installed. I’ll change the mvb bulb over to incandescent when it goes off tonight. Mary knobbins is beautiful, what age is she?
I try as much as possible to feed wild weeds/flowers where possible but do supplement them with kale during the winter. Occasionally some cress. The weather gets cold in the UK and I struggle to offer a freshly picked wild diet consistently

There are still plenty of dandelion leaves and flowers around if you have a walk outside To a park, common or field near you?

 

[Greenfingers]

There are still plenty of dandelion leaves and flowers around if you have a walk outside To a park, common or field near you?

I find the occasional dandelion worth picking but not a vast amount and also a little long plantain but she won’t eat common plantain which we have a good supply of. I’ve got some seeds too to plant otherwise it’s supermarket stuff unfortunately. I’ve just ordered 5 plants from ‘bioactive herps’ website which was recommended to me, I’m looking forward to those arriving to give us more selection