Pyramiding?

[PoppyT]

Hi! I just got this redfoot, I was told she is about 3 years old and is 5 inches. She is my first tortoise, I’ve done a lot of research and I know she has pyramiding. My question is, how bad would you say it is? Does the new growth look like it’s going well? Does she look healthy? I can’t really tell just yet.

I know it can’t be reversed but any tips on how to keep her shell growing perfectly from here on out would help.

She lives in an outdoor enclosure where the temps are about 85-95 and humidity 70-85. she does have a humid hide, I spray her substrate daily, access to water 24/7, she eats mulberry, hibiscus, grass mostly and leafy greens (kale, bokchoy, cabbage, mustard greens) soak her every morning for about 15 minutes. Her substrate is coco coir and orchid bark. Her enclosure has a bunch of plants as well.

Thank you.

 

[wellington]

It's a lot of pyramiding but it's just cosmetic. Keep the humidity up and she will grow new growth smoother.
Be careful having the top layer of her enclosure wet. RF are prone to shell rot.

 

[Yvonne G]

Aw, she's awfully pretty You've lucked out!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello! Welcome to the forum! Shes a very beautiful red foot! Definitely does have pyramiding but with correct care it’ll only be cosmetic😊

Whilst you’re here I don’t suppose you’d mind answering a few questions? It’s so handy to know how new members are keeping their tortoise🙂

You mentioned your temps ranging 85-95? That it’s a little high for a red foot but are you night temps still staying above 80?

For substrate are you only using the coir and orchid bark? Never add any kind off moss anywhere

What type of lighting are you using? Or is that the temperature outside where you are? I’m guessing you don’t have indoor uv if they’re kept outside?🙂

I’m including some information below on an indoor set up but as yours is outdoors some of the info is redundant, but I’ve included the correct types of equipment to use! Hopefully you find some of the information helpful😊

If going with a light emitting heat source, use an incandescent floodlight on a 12hour timer.

However red foots aren’t necessarily a basking species coming from the forest floor, nor do they need a ‘warmer end’ and a ‘cooler end’ they thrive in a ambient temperature range of 80-86, 82-84 being optimal. To achieve this you’ll probably find it easier sticking to CHE’s (ceramic heat emitters) as your heat source, hang them evenly from one another to distribute the heat more evenly, these can run 24/7 and they need to be on a thermostat.
Then for ambient lighting, hang it so the entire enclosure is lit but provide plenty of shady spots with plants and hides cause red foots don’t like things too bright. Either get some led strip lighting or a standard screw in led in the colour range 5000-6500k from the hardware store, this needs to be on a 12hour timer.

Always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For uv light provide it the form of a t5 fluorescent tube light, don’t go with compact uv bulbs, they can damage the tortoises eyes, I’d recommend the Arcadia brand cause it comes with the reflector fitting to waste no uv light, members on here also use the zoo med brand, mount it 18-21 inches from substrate, this can be on a separate 4hour timer from noon. I’ll include photos of them and how people mount them on stands made from timber. If keeping yours outdoors don’t worry about this.

Definitely never use any foggers/ misters, they make the air too wet causing respiratory issues and only focus of getting the top layer of substrate wet, which will leave them prone to shell rot, same with constantly spraying.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then, which also helps boosting humidity. I’d personally recommend orchid bark for substrate. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

To maintain humidity you need a closed chamber set up, this can be provided with a greenhouse topper, If you can’t find an exact fit for your base then place it over like the one with the white base in the photo, I’d put lining down under the base and cover though to stop condensate getting on your floor.
When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some people get a large bookcase, lie flat and take the shelves out, some use flower beds or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough. If your humidity is holding without this? Again don’t worry.

Some people even hang their lighting from the greenhouse frame! Simply wrap the wire round so it’s at the height you need(check with temp gun/put thermostat in, 18-21 for uv) and secure with cable ties.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

Diet wise, they aren’t typically grass eaters, red foot’s differ from most tortoise species, they’re fruit eaters and require a small amount of protein every 7-10 days. Let me know if you’d like me to pass on my list for what we personally feed ours, might give you some ideas for different varieties🙂

Ignore whatever else is in these enclosures in the photos, they’re just to give you an idea👍

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct🙂

Hope to see you stick around so we can follow your journey🥰

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Let me know if you’d like to check out the food list😁

 

[PoppyT]

It's a lot of pyramiding but it's just cosmetic. Keep the humidity up and she will grow new growth smoother.
Be careful having the top layer of her enclosure wet. RF are prone to shell rot.

Yes I thought so. Does the new growth seem better or not so? How can I tell? And, thanks for letting me know about shell rot! How do I keep it damp if not spraying the top layer?

 

[PoppyT]

Aw, she's awfully pretty You've lucked out!

Yess she’s such a cutie! 😍

 

[PoppyT]

Hello! Welcome to the forum! Shes a very beautiful red foot! Definitely does have pyramiding but with correct care it’ll only be cosmetic😊

Whilst you’re here I don’t suppose you’d mind answering a few questions? It’s so handy to know how new members are keeping their tortoise🙂

You mentioned your temps ranging 85-95? That it’s a little high for a red foot but are you night temps still staying above 80?

For substrate are you only using the coir and orchid bark? Never add any kind off moss anywhere

What type of lighting are you using? Or is that the temperature outside where you are? I’m guessing you don’t have indoor uv if they’re kept outside?🙂

I’m including some information below on an indoor set up but as yours is outdoors some of the info is redundant, but I’ve included the correct types of equipment to use! Hopefully you find some of the information helpful😊

If going with a light emitting heat source, use an incandescent floodlight on a 12hour timer.

However red foots aren’t necessarily a basking species coming from the forest floor, nor do they need a ‘warmer end’ and a ‘cooler end’ they thrive in a ambient temperature range of 80-86, 82-84 being optimal. To achieve this you’ll probably find it easier sticking to CHE’s (ceramic heat emitters) as your heat source, hang them evenly from one another to distribute the heat more evenly, these can run 24/7 and they need to be on a thermostat.
Then for ambient lighting, hang it so the entire enclosure is lit but provide plenty of shady spots with plants and hides cause red foots don’t like things too bright. Either get some led strip lighting or a standard screw in led in the colour range 5000-6500k from the hardware store, this needs to be on a 12hour timer.

Always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For uv light provide it the form of a t5 fluorescent tube light, don’t go with compact uv bulbs, they can damage the tortoises eyes, I’d recommend the Arcadia brand cause it comes with the reflector fitting to waste no uv light, members on here also use the zoo med brand, mount it 18-21 inches from substrate, this can be on a separate 4hour timer from noon. I’ll include photos of them and how people mount them on stands made from timber. If keeping yours outdoors don’t worry about this.

Definitely never use any foggers/ misters, they make the air too wet causing respiratory issues and only focus of getting the top layer of substrate wet, which will leave them prone to shell rot, same with constantly spraying.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then, which also helps boosting humidity. I’d personally recommend orchid bark for substrate. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

To maintain humidity you need a closed chamber set up, this can be provided with a greenhouse topper, If you can’t find an exact fit for your base then place it over like the one with the white base in the photo, I’d put lining down under the base and cover though to stop condensate getting on your floor.
When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some people get a large bookcase, lie flat and take the shelves out, some use flower beds or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough. If your humidity is holding without this? Again don’t worry.

Some people even hang their lighting from the greenhouse frame! Simply wrap the wire round so it’s at the height you need(check with temp gun/put thermostat in, 18-21 for uv) and secure with cable ties.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

Diet wise, they aren’t typically grass eaters, red foot’s differ from most tortoise species, they’re fruit eaters and require a small amount of protein every 7-10 days. Let me know if you’d like me to pass on my list for what we personally feed ours, might give you some ideas for different varieties🙂

Ignore whatever else is in these enclosures in the photos, they’re just to give you an idea👍

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct🙂

Hope to see you stick around so we can follow your journey🥰

Does the new growth seem okay? How do I monitor that? Relieved to know that it can just be cosmetic.

Yes no moss and yes those are the temperatures where I live. It’s around 90 but at night it’s around 80. This is why I’ve been so concerned about keeping her substrate damp - but I didn’t realize I had to worry about shell rot. Thanks for the tip on pouring water on the sides. Does this mean I shouldn’t spray at all then?

For humidity, I’m worried about th closed chamber outdoors cause it might get too hot - or is that just for indoors? What level of humidity are we aiming for?

And yes I would love to know what you feed your redfoots! I’ve seen the list but don’t really know how much to feed, how often and if I should give a variety for every feeding or change it up daily. Thank you!

 

[wellington]

Outside a closed chamber is dangerous as like you said, it will get to hot.
The closed chamber is only for indoors and really only for hatchlings up to about 3 years
You can pour water into the corners and stir it up some if you have a liner under the substrate. If it's just ground, then I would spray half the enclosure and spray the bushes and plants.
Day temp should be around 85 so be sure there is lots of shade, specially deep shade.
If you can post a pic of the whole enclosure we can help better to what could be added to help with shade and humidity. RF don't need as much sun as other species. RF need lots of shade, both deep shade and speckled shade, where the light of sun still gets in a little, like the fern in your pic.
It's hard to see, but it does look like newer growth is smoother. The sides will grow in smoother easier than the top.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Does the new growth seem okay? How do I monitor that? Relieved to know that it can just be cosmetic.

Yes no moss and yes those are the temperatures where I live. It’s around 90 but at night it’s around 80. This is why I’ve been so concerned about keeping her substrate damp - but I didn’t realize I had to worry about shell rot. Thanks for the tip on pouring water on the sides. Does this mean I shouldn’t spray at all then?

For humidity, I’m worried about th closed chamber outdoors cause it might get too hot - or is that just for indoors? What level of humidity are we aiming for?

And yes I would love to know what you feed your redfoots! I’ve seen the list but don’t really know how much to feed, how often and if I should give a variety for every feeding or change it up daily. Thank you!

Nothing of concern with her growth in the photo aside from the previous pyramiding, in fact she has some beautiful marbling coming in😍
Perhaps consider starting monthly weighing to monitor their growth🥰

Sounds like you’re in a really good climate for them, with temperatures reaching 90, make sure there’s lots of shady areas provided, anything upwards of 90 they could overheat in direct sun, would be lovely to see a photo of your enclosure? We can give tips on how many hides to add etc😊your night temps are perfect for them👌

As for the sprays, doing the pours should mean the sprays will become redundant and with the lower layers being damp instead of the top, there’s far less risk of shell rot👍just be sure the top doesn’t go ‘dusty dry’, you can mix it up now n then to help that🙂
Just keep an eye on your monitors and the substrate to gauge as and when you need to do a top up pour😊
If you don’t have a liner underneath I’d recommend some cheap pond liner to protect your base with the pours👍

Yeah don’t worry about a closed chamber outdoors, it would overheat, the cover was a suggestion should you have to house them indoors at any point during the year, depending on your climate🙂humidity in the range of 75-85 is good to aim for, 80 is optimal😊

I’ll include some diet info in my next reply🥰

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Ratio wise for feeds, you can aim for 40% greens, 60% fruits and swap round the ratios, some days it can be more greens, some days more fruit, but I’d personally offer both with each feed. Don’t worry if sometimes it’s 30% fruit and 70% greens, it’s ok to mix things up a bit.
A shell sized portion daily should be fine for them to graze but if they polish it off quickly you can offer some more. Increase the feed size as they grow🙂

These are some greens to feed(bare in mind the lettuce isn’t the most nutritional but fine to add as part of a varied diet);

Lambs lettuce
Romaine
Red leaf lettuce
Frisèe lettuce
Endive(chicory)
Spring greens
Kale
Rocket
Cress on occasion
The odd Brussel sprout on occasion

There’s also plenty of different weeds you can add! If you can maybe get your hands on some seeds online, don’t worry if not, but maybe you could have a look through the wildflowers section in the link below, and see if there’s any seeds you can get, simply grown in organic soil free of fertilisers, and once they grow you can forage them🙂

The Tortoise Table - Home

The Tortoise Table plant database and resource site for Tortoise owners

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

Now let’s talk fruit! We remove any pips/seed/stones that are either toxic or a chocking hazard, so for my list, we’d remove the mango stone, plum stone, peach stone, nectarine stone, cherry stones(chocking hazard!), apricot stones, appel&pear seeds(toxic)

Ones we feed more regularly(but rotate cause variety is key):
Mango
Papaya
Pineapple
Raspberries
Melon
Strawberries
Watermelon(not super nutritional but a good hydration boost)
Plum
Peach
Nectarines
Cherries
Apricot
Blueberries
Figs
Guava
Prickly pear

Ones we feel less regularly:
Appel
Banana
Blackberries
Grapes
Pear

Those last ones are more of a treat basis. You can also try cherry tomatoes on occasion but not often.
We also sometimes grate a bit of carrot on our red foots food(not a lot) or some courgette, you can also add bell peppers on occasion.

They’ll also enjoy some mushroom once a week or so!

Hope this helps give you some ideas for variety🙂 we try not to give ours too much of just the one type of fruit in any given week, however she gets papaya pretty much daily, it makes up a large majority of their diet in the wild so definitely get your hands on some!

Also they’ll need some protein every 7-10 days, we personally give ours a head sized protein of steamed chicken breast, or a mouse, you can buy frozen at reptile stores, make sure it’s fully defrosted before feeding.

Calcium power can be added on 3 feeds a week.

Hope all this helps😊

 

[PoppyT]

Outside a closed chamber is dangerous as like you said, it will get to hot.
The closed chamber is only for indoors and really only for hatchlings up to about 3 years
You can pour water into the corners and stir it up some if you have a liner under the substrate. If it's just ground, then I would spray half the enclosure and spray the bushes and plants.
Day temp should be around 85 so be sure there is lots of shade, specially deep shade.
If you can post a pic of the whole enclosure we can help better to what could be added to help with shade and humidity. RF don't need as much sun as other species. RF need lots of shade, both deep shade and speckled shade, where the light of sun still gets in a little, like the fern in your pic.
It's hard to see, but it does look like newer growth is smoother. The sides will grow in smoother easier than the top.

I’ll post a photo of her enclosure. I should probably add more shade then. She actually has a hide but she never seems to use it. I wonder if that’s normal? Yes I have a liner under, so I will definitely start following your advice! Thanks so much.

 

[PoppyT]

Nothing of concern with her growth in the photo aside from the previous pyramiding, in fact she has some beautiful marbling coming in😍
Perhaps consider starting monthly weighing to monitor their growth🥰

Sounds like you’re in a really good climate for them, with temperatures reaching 90, make sure there’s lots of shady areas provided, anything upwards of 90 they could overheat in direct sun, would be lovely to see a photo of your enclosure? We can give tips on how many hides to add etc😊your night temps are perfect for them👌

As for the sprays, doing the pours should mean the sprays will become redundant and with the lower layers being damp instead of the top, there’s far less risk of shell rot👍just be sure the top doesn’t go ‘dusty dry’, you can mix it up now n then to help that🙂
Just keep an eye on your monitors and the substrate to gauge as and when you need to do a top up pour😊
If you don’t have a liner underneath I’d recommend some cheap pond liner to protect your base with the pours👍

Yeah don’t worry about a closed chamber outdoors, it would overheat, the cover was a suggestion should you have to house them indoors at any point during the year, depending on your climate🙂humidity in the range of 75-85 is good to aim for, 80 is optimal😊

I’ll include some diet info in my next reply🥰

Wow thanks so much for all the advice. Will save that list of food you sent so I can refer to it from time to time. I’ll attach a photo of her enclosure. She never uses her hide and she just walks around her house all day and sleeps under the spider plant at night. I wonder if I should add more hides, plants? I was just thinking I didn’t want to crowd her enclosure, or would that be fine?

I plan to move her to a bigger fenced part of our garden in about a year perhaps! Thanks for all your help!

 

[wellington]

I would get a shallower water dish so you can fill it to the top
Another plant on the end the others are would give a deeper shade and a bigger plant where the small one is on the opposite side, leaving the middle for more roaming. The enclosure is really a bit small for her size. I would get it covered with one of the pop up greenhouses and plan on extending the enclosure.

 

[PoppyT]

I would get a shallower water dish so you can fill it to the top
Another plant on the end the others are would give a deeper shade and a bigger plant where the small one is on the opposite side, leaving the middle for more roaming. The enclosure is really a bit small for her size. I would get it covered with one of the pop up greenhouses and plan on extending the enclosure.

Yes it is quite small, we had this made thinking we were getting a hatchling but saw her and decided on her instead. But I will definitely make a bigger enclosure for her in our garden so she can have more space.

I was thinking of covering a third of it, would that be considered deep shade?

 

[wellington]

Yes it is quite small, we had this made thinking we were getting a hatchling but saw her and decided on her instead. But I will definitely make a bigger enclosure for her in our garden so she can have more space.

I was thinking of covering a third of it, would that be considered deep shade?

I forgot about her being outside, so a greenhouse cover would get too hot.
Just add the plants I suggested and that would give deep shade on one end and speckled shade on the other.

 

[PoppyT]

I forgot about her being outside, so a greenhouse cover would get too hot.
Just add the plants I suggested and that would give deep shade on one end and speckled shade on the other.

Got it. Thank you for your input!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Wow thanks so much for all the advice. Will save that list of food you sent so I can refer to it from time to time. I’ll attach a photo of her enclosure. She never uses her hide and she just walks around her house all day and sleeps under the spider plant at night. I wonder if I should add more hides, plants? I was just thinking I didn’t want to crowd her enclosure, or would that be fine?

I plan to move her to a bigger fenced part of our garden in about a year perhaps! Thanks for all your help!

No problem at all🥰
I think the suggestion of another big plant by the bigger one and the hide will create a nice shady area, and one the other end, least that way she has some roaming space in the middle until you get her into a bigger area which she’ll definitely appreciate❤️her colours are stunning I must say!

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!
You can place some plants in large pots or on a stand outside the enclosure to avoid cluttering. Pothos vines, prayer plant, boston fern, hibiscus bush, grown spider plant with "spiderettes" are what comes to mind - these plants grow more to the sides than up. Except hibiscus which is just shady and is a good food source.

Make sure the water dish is large enough (but still shallow) so she can can get into and enjoy self-soaks.

You can turn her hide's entrance against the wall or plants, she might like it better this way.

I don't see much new growth (yet) on the photos - it's hard to tell if you keep pyramiding under control. If she was underweight, it could take several months before the next "growth spurt".

 

[MaNaAk]

Aw, she's awfully pretty You've lucked out!

She is gorgeous!