Pyramiding?
- Thread starter roby77
- Start date
There does seem to be some, not very badly though.
Can you tell us what your set up is like? Lighting, temps, substrate, soaks?
Can you tell us what your set up is like? Lighting, temps, substrate, soaks?
I have a bulb installed for heat, and I expose him in direct sunlight almost everyday for 30-45 minutes.
I soak him in lukewarm water for 15 minutes everyday.
Substrate: Mixture of mud and sand.
I'm not too sure about the temperature, the weather is not that cool here though, it is somewhere around 70-80 degreed F.
Being a student, I have limited resources here, but I'm trying my best.
I soak him in lukewarm water for 15 minutes everyday.
Substrate: Mixture of mud and sand.
I'm not too sure about the temperature, the weather is not that cool here though, it is somewhere around 70-80 degreed F.
Being a student, I have limited resources here, but I'm trying my best.
Direct sunlight is great. If your ambient temp is 70 - 80 and you have a heat bulb you should be doing okay, but I would get a temp gauge if you can. He should have a basking spot around 95 - 100 degrees.
Daily soaks are good too. If your substrate is really wet (mud as you say) just make sure your temperatures are high enough. If it's wet and chilly they can get sick. You should also have a water dish available (make sure it's a safe one, drowning is a risk with high-sided dishes).
What are you feeding?
Daily soaks are good too. If your substrate is really wet (mud as you say) just make sure your temperatures are high enough. If it's wet and chilly they can get sick. You should also have a water dish available (make sure it's a safe one, drowning is a risk with high-sided dishes).
What are you feeding?
roby77 said:
Hey Roby,
you have a beautiful Indian star, some stars pyramid more than others, especially the Sri Lankan stars.
During the first 2 years a constant 80% or higher air humidity is crucial if you want to avoid pyramiding in any tortoise species. After that two years exercise, diet, UVB and UVA light, and calcium should keep the carapace from growing deformed or pyramiding.
You need to make your enclosure closed. This means to cover the top so the air in it is contained, of course there should be air vents but the inside environment would be separate than that of the room unless you live in the jungles of India.
Sphagnum moss will assist in the humidity level so give it a misting too. The moss is slightly acidic and will will help avoid any shell rot but its very important to keep everything clean and fresh inside, you want to avoid bacteria growth because its warm and damp. Your overall 24/7 temperature should stay at an even 80F and a day time basking area of 90-94F.
Here is what I did for my baby stars. I bought two 55 gallon container tubs at Home Depot for $22 dollars each and built this. I added a side humidifier that pours in a mist for a few minutes every hour on a timer and since I live in a cold climate (Illinois), I also have a space heater and room humidifier to keep the levels higher and so the inside 100W Ceramic Emitter Heater doesn't have to work as hard, and because I like to keep the ground from getting cold.
I already tried this set up for 3 Sri Lankan star hatchlings for almost a year and had great success in avoiding any pyramiding. I am now using it for my new tortoise, "Nova" my Burmese star hatchling.
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Try using Vita-shell once a week. I use it one Eros and Gaia (my 2 leopards torts) and they have 0% pyramiding after 2 years
Zamric said:
I don't recommend rubbing oil on your tortoises, you don't want to block UVB and restrict moisture (tortoises absorb moisture from their environment). Vita-shell might make a old dried up and cracked shell look better but this is not suitable for a young star. I doubt there is any expert tortoise zoologist that recommends rubbing oil on a young tortoise or any tortoise.
Vita-shell is a mix of different kinds of oils.
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SaveTheTortoise said:
Vita-shell does not block UV's and does not cause harm to turtles or tortoises. It is not intended to repair dried up, or cracked shells, in fact it WILL NOT repair dried up or cracked shells. What it does do is help condition the shell as it grows. We have been using it on WalkingRock since he hatched 13 years ago and continue to use it on Eros and Gaia..... All 3 cases show MINIMAL pyramiding.
Consider it "hand Lotion" for tortoises.
Zamric said:
I am not making this up, I read in this article that these oils can block up to 30% of the UV light. Also if you read the vita shell jar it says for cracked, dry, brittle shells, so if you don't trust what the company says about their own product maybe you also shouldn't trust their scientific research and testing, if they even did any.
I lean toward the side of caution and whats in the best interests of the tortoise. If there is any chance it could block and UV light or moisture, I say don't use Vita-shell or coconut oil or any other magic thing unless your reptile vet advises it like a little antibiotic cream on a cut or something but not these hand lotion oils. We don't want any tortoises to end up with MBD Sad
http://www.naturalnews.com/033261_natural_sunscreen_UV_exposure.html
I've had this same discussion several times on this forum. Point is, I've used it longer and more regular than any other breeder/keeper on this site. Tho there are many on here that state it may or may not help, NONE can make the case that it is harmful in any way or fashion.
I NEVER believe everything a company says about it's products! That's just crazy! I do believe in results and Vita-Shell has proven (at least to me) that it does help prevent pyramiding in young tortoises and if it helps prevent pyramiding at a young age then the shell itself will grow smoother as the tortoise ages and grows.
Does it block UV's? perhaps a little but I doubt it's the 30% you claim, especially when used correctly. It should not be caked or slathered on! Like hand lotion, it should be applied in small amounts and rubbed in and any excess removed. If you put anything on thick enough, it will block UVs.
Also, I don't advocate the use of "coconut oil or any other magic thing". I recommend the use of Vita-shell (a product designed for use by turtles and tortoises exclusively)
...and as for this statement "We don't want any tortoises to end up with MBD Sad".... There is no proof or even the slightest connection that Vita-shell causes MBD! This statement alone should make others doubt any opinions you may have on tortoise keeping!
I NEVER believe everything a company says about it's products! That's just crazy! I do believe in results and Vita-Shell has proven (at least to me) that it does help prevent pyramiding in young tortoises and if it helps prevent pyramiding at a young age then the shell itself will grow smoother as the tortoise ages and grows.
Does it block UV's? perhaps a little but I doubt it's the 30% you claim, especially when used correctly. It should not be caked or slathered on! Like hand lotion, it should be applied in small amounts and rubbed in and any excess removed. If you put anything on thick enough, it will block UVs.
Also, I don't advocate the use of "coconut oil or any other magic thing". I recommend the use of Vita-shell (a product designed for use by turtles and tortoises exclusively)
...and as for this statement "We don't want any tortoises to end up with MBD Sad".... There is no proof or even the slightest connection that Vita-shell causes MBD! This statement alone should make others doubt any opinions you may have on tortoise keeping!
Too add to what Zamric has said, from what I have read the majority of D2 to D3 conversion happens in the skin, not the shell.
So the argument that VitaShell blocks UV, doesn't have much bearing on anything anyway...
I'm not advocating for or against shell topicals, I'm just saying UV blockage is not a factor. Zamric is completely correct in his first paragraph.
So the argument that VitaShell blocks UV, doesn't have much bearing on anything anyway...
I'm not advocating for or against shell topicals, I'm just saying UV blockage is not a factor. Zamric is completely correct in his first paragraph.
Tom said:
Hi Tom,
I would be interested to read "what you read", can you share your sources?
Was there a study done as to whether they can absorb UVB through the shell or not?
Also I've read on the forum and Google searches of people applying these oils on the skin too, like that coconut oil thread.
Zamric said:
Hi Zamric,
I don't think you read what I wrote, these are not opinions, they are concerns, try to keep an open mind.
SaveTheTortoise said:Hi Zamric,
I don't think you read what I wrote, these are not opinions, they are concerns, try to keep an open mind.
I did read what you said and you implied that Vita-Shell could cause MBD. This is a complete falsehood. You should read more on the causes of MBD... I doubt you will find that any kind of oils applied to the shell is even remotely linked to this dreaded condition.
I didn't say cause, but inferior UVB light can contribute to the possibility of MBD.
Many of us cannot house our tortoises outdoors and indoor lighting has it's challenges because the UV output diminishes with distance, testing your output with a solar meter is a good way to calibrate the distances.
Providing quality UVB and UVA lighting is obviously much more critical for the indoor tortoises so my concern is that vita-shell, coconut oil and I've read of people applying other types of oils, could possibly block some UVB light, like that article I attached above states. Even if it blocks less than 30%, this practice of applying topicals doesn't assist the tortoise in D3 production for it's best potential.
UVB light guide
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm
Many of us cannot house our tortoises outdoors and indoor lighting has it's challenges because the UV output diminishes with distance, testing your output with a solar meter is a good way to calibrate the distances.
Providing quality UVB and UVA lighting is obviously much more critical for the indoor tortoises so my concern is that vita-shell, coconut oil and I've read of people applying other types of oils, could possibly block some UVB light, like that article I attached above states. Even if it blocks less than 30%, this practice of applying topicals doesn't assist the tortoise in D3 production for it's best potential.
UVB light guide
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm
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SavetheTortoise, if your source is natural news then I would suggest you do more research. That site is complete garbage. It's all pseudoscience or complete made-up fantasy.
Redari said:
Interesting topic!!!
I will take some time to research this more in depth and talk to a few Doctors and biologists I know, but here is a few more possible pseudoscience or not, sources I found. I will know a lot more in a few weeks.
http://www.organiconline.com.sg/sungel.htm
http://www.hemphollow.com/files/3458219/uplo...
http://sites.google.com/site/forgetmenotps/n...
Peace & Love
MBD = Sad
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We should move this discussion to our own Thread.... it appears we may have high jacked the OP's thread about pyramiding with talk of MBD... which are 2 totally different subjects.
Can we get a Mod to split this subject line?
Can we get a Mod to split this subject line?
Good idea, Zamric. I wonder how hard it would be to do some proper research in this area. I would imagine you can do blood tests for vitamin D levels in tortoises like you can in humans. It would be a great idea for a masters project or something.
