Q about lighting..

[Reptilian Feline]

So, if I get the one for 10% and place it on the ground under my 10% UVB tube light, it will just show if there is 10% UVB or not? No gradients?

 

[Martin Martinussen]

Are you saying you want a UV index reading of 9 or 10? That would fry any reptile. Am I misunderstand what you mean by these numbers? Mid day summer sun, which is WAYYYYY higher than what any tortoise needs gives a UVI reading of less than 7.0.

Well the UV index near saraha is closer to 15 doing the day. Been working in both Egypt and Cameron it was around 12+ both places.. So unless you have another scale in the US. I say you are a bit low.

 

[Martin Martinussen]

So, if I get the one for 10% and place it on the ground under my 10% UVB tube light, it will just show if there is 10% UVB or not? No gradients?

Got full range.. from 0 - 10 plus 11+ with says extreme. On each..

 

[Martin Martinussen]

So, if I get the one for 10% and place it on the ground under my 10% UVB tube light, it will just show if there is 10% UVB or not? No gradients?

 

[Martin Martinussen]

How it looks like

 

[Reptilian Feline]

I'll see if one of the Danish vendors carry them at the next expo in Malmö. Might as well see them in action for that price! Saw the picture! Now I understand. Will pick some up when I get a chance.

 

[Martin Martinussen]

Are you saying you want a UV index reading of 9 or 10? That would fry any reptile. Am I misunderstand what you mean by these numbers? Mid day summer sun, which is WAYYYYY higher than what any tortoise needs gives a UVI reading of less than 7.0.

Here is the UV reading over Africa.
http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/weather/maps/forecastmaps?CONT=afri&MAPS=uv&LAND=CM

And as you can see nothing under 10..

 

[Martin Martinussen]

I'll see if one of the Danish vendors carry them at the next expo in Malmö. Might as well see them in action for that price! Saw the picture! Now I understand. Will pick some up when I get a chance.

It's a good indicator to when you need to replace.. not 100 accurate but more then enuff for this I would say..

 

[Reptilian Feline]

So this is what it measures: The Ferguson Zones: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...he-Ferguson-zones-Columns-1-to-5-of-the-table

 

[Martin Martinussen]

So this is what it measures: The Ferguson Zones: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...he-Ferguson-zones-Columns-1-to-5-of-the-table

Yeah something like that.
But this is not natural place for a leopards..
Would like to see readings from where the sulcata or leopards live in Africa insted.. Since it's close to spot on equator they live. And the UV index is much higher there. As you can see on the pic. I posted to Tom with today's UV Index reading over Africa.
It's 10+ all the places they live..

 

[Martin Martinussen]

Found a better one that go up to uv 15..
And easy to see that in nature it's UV 10+
This is just the UV for today. So don't know about the weather or cloudy and so on..
But it's for sure not under 10.

 

[Martin Martinussen]

So, if I get the one for 10% and place it on the ground under my 10% UVB tube light, it will just show if there is 10% UVB or not? No gradients?

I would say yes.. if it's in the right range of what the manufacturer said the right range is..
Exo-tarra tubes need to be from 25-45cm to give the UV it says on the tube..

 

[Tom]

Well the UV index near saraha is closer to 15 doing the day. Been working in both Egypt and Cameron it was around 12+ both places.. So unless you have another scale in the US. I say you are a bit low.

My readings are coming from a Solarmeter 6.5. The link you posted must be using some sort of different scale. I just know that mid day summer sun at my latitude is extremely high. Way higher than what I'd want over a reptile all day long. I get a reading of 5.9-6.1 at about 18-20" from my Arcadia 12% bulbs and only run them for 3-4 hours a day, mid day.

One problem here is that no one really knows how all this works with D3, UVB, and UV index. There is no definitive answer about how it all works. Is there some minimum threshold that must be over come for D3 synthesis to occur? Does a reading of 0.1 for 10 hours do the same thing as a reading of 1.0 for one hour? No one knows. And no one knows what levels our animals need. Chameleon keepers seem to shoot for 0.5-1.0. I've seen references for bearded dragons of UVI readings of 3-4 being on the high side of ideal for all day use.

If I'm wrong about these numbers and this is the same scale, I seriously doubt you will seen any reptile sitting out in the open at 10+, and your tortoises definitely don't need readings that high. You are playing with unknown factors here, and reptiles are routinely injured burn and blinded by incorrect use of these products.

I'd like to ask for @Markw84 to chime in here. He knows more about this than I do, and I'd like to learn more about these numbers.

 

[Martin Martinussen]

Both links is national weather service.
The UK with the max 10 UV and the Danish with the scale up to 15.. and both are today's readings..

But my aim is to try and get it close to how they wound have it in the wild.. and as seen on the pic. I posted it's easy to see they try and bask when they are in the shade also.. only problem is the indoor factor.. so will put up 2 exo-tarra 10% tubes in close to max range with is 45cm.. I install them at 40cm with reflectors tho. To get the best output..

But as I understand it they will put out close to 10UV on the UV index scale..

 

[Martin Martinussen]

My readings are coming from a Solarmeter 6.5. The link you posted must be using some sort of different scale. I just know that mid day summer sun at my latitude is extremely high. Way higher than what I'd want over a reptile all day long. I get a reading of 5.9-6.1 at about 18-20" from my Arcadia 12% bulbs and only run them for 3-4 hours a day, mid day.

One problem here is that no one really knows how all this works with D3, UVB, and UV index. There is no definitive answer about how it all works. Is there some minimum threshold that must be over come for D3 synthesis to occur? Does a reading of 0.1 for 10 hours do the same thing as a reading of 1.0 for one hour? No one knows. And no one knows what levels our animals need. Chameleon keepers seem to shoot for 0.5-1.0. I've seen references for bearded dragons of UVI readings of 3-4 being on the high side of ideal for all day use.

If I'm wrong about these numbers and this is the same scale, I seriously doubt you will seen any reptile sitting out in the open at 10+, and your tortoises definitely don't need readings that high. You are playing with unknown factors here, and reptiles are routinely injured burn and blinded by incorrect use of these products.

I'd like to ask for @Markw84 to chime in here. He knows more about this than I do, and I'd like to learn more about these numbers.

But totally agree with you this is a jungle...
That UV meter you have must filter it or something or I'm ******* things up.. I always thought the % was the approx output of the UV-b.. but your reading it's only half.. So something is up..
But don't have the tubes yet so can't test them with that UV brick..

 

[Tom]

Both links is national weather service.
The UK with the max 10 UV and the Danish with the scale up to 15.. and both are today's readings..

But my aim is to try and get it close to how they wound have it in the wild.. and as seen on the pic. I posted it's easy to see they try and bask when they are in the shade also.. only problem is the indoor factor.. so will put up 2 exo-tarra 10% tubes in close to max range with is 45cm.. I install them at 40cm with reflectors tho. To get the best output..

But as I understand it they will put out close to 10UV on the UV index scale..

Think about this for a moment…

What makes you think UK numbers would be 30% higher than SoCal numbers? Something is off in these numbers.

What device are you measuring your levels with to arrive at your UVI number of 10 in your enclosure? The little cards?

 

[Martin Martinussen]

Think about this for a moment…

What makes you think UK numbers would be 30% higher than SoCal numbers? Something is off in these numbers.

What device are you measuring your levels with to arrive at your UVI number of 10 in your enclosure? The little cards?

Don't have the tubes yet.. So don't how much they will put out... other than I thought the desert made tubes was around 10UV.. Why they called them 10%..... But then yours are 12% and only put out around 6UV..

Know 10UV is dann high.. but if you see the UV index from where they live in the wild it's 10+ UV
And leopards are known to grass and walk around. Not hiding in borrows like the Sulcata if to hot.

The card thingy don't work on the HID bulbs.. and only one I'm using atm..

 

[Martin Martinussen]

Tom I found this.. someone tested the 12% tubes and even some HID bulbs..
and its more like max 2 UV at minimum range.. so its alot less then what i thought it was..
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/UVTool-ArcadiaD3plusT8.htm

And tested with the same UV meter as you have..

 

[Markw84]

Don't have the tubes yet.. So don't how much they will put out... other than I thought the desert made tubes was around 10UV.. Why they called them 10%..... But then yours are 12% and only put out around 6UV..

Know 10UV is dann high.. but if you see the UV index from where they live in the wild it's 10+ UV
And leopards are known to grass and walk around. Not hiding in borrows like the Sulcata if to hot.

The card thingy don't work on the HID bulbs.. and only one I'm using atm..

Martin, please stop giving UV advice until you have learned a bit more. You have gotten yourself way off track and totally misunderstand most of the things you are referring to.

Where to start????

First. the 2.0 and 5.0 and 10.0 and 12.0 that bulbs are rated has NOTHING to do with the UVI index they produce. Those numbers are the percentage of UVB radiation on the total electromagnetic radiation the bulb emits. Roughly, a 10.0 fluorescent tube will be emitting 10% UVB, about 30% UVA the remaining 60% as visible light. A 5.0 tube emits 5% UVB, about 35% UVA and 60% visible light, etc, etc. The marketing mumbo jumbo about forest, desert, etc is pure marketing talk. The DISTANCE from any of the bulbs controls the UVI reading you will get. So with a standard 12.0 bulb (not HO), you will probably get a 3-4 UVI at about 16"-18". With a 5.0 bulb you will probably get a 3-4 UVI at 8"-10". A reflector hood will change those numbers dramatically.

To try to emulate "what they get in the wild" is a slippery slope. First, sulcatas are not from the Sahara. They are from the Sahel - the grasslands that border the southern fringes. To say that a solar noon you can get a UVI reading of 13 in the Sahel is true. But that is the same as saying in the summer you can get a temperature of 130°. So are you trying to set up your enclosure to be 130° with a gradient? OF course not. A sulcata would die in 130° heat and is deep in its burrow at such times. Even here is N Califonia, my sulcatas truly bask, with legs stretched out, pretty much around 8-10AM in the morning only. In the wild, you would probably see a sulcata (or leopard) basking around 8-9AM.

The standard worldwide for UV index was created to have a universal way to talk about the "sunburning" strength of the sun so it could be related to different parts of the world and still apply. The scale standardly went from 0 -10, but more recently most scales now include 11.0. They only go to 11.0 because anything above that would fry you in less than 3 minutes, and you should never expose your skin to a UVI that high. For comparison, the MAXIMUM UVI reading you can get at solar noon, June 20th would be:
Miami Florida - 10.0-11.0
New York, New York - 6.0-7.0
Portland OR - 5.0-6.0
Anchorage Alaska - 3.0-4.0
If you look at the Max UVI for Niger this week (where my several of my sulcatas came from) it is 12.0.

The best charts I have found in all my studies that seem to give the best guidelines for UVI levels for reptiles in captivity is the Ferguson zones. I have used these guidelines in setting up my lighting for some time now. Here is that chart recently revised:



So you can see the best recommendations we have on the UVI zones we should create for our tortoises would be the high end of the zone 3 = a gradient from probably 3.5 - 7.0. I personally do not believe the higher end is necessary at all, and I go for a basking zone of 3.0 - 4.0 in my enclosures for sulcatas, leopards and for the stars.

They do not need much UVB at all to satisfy the needs for creating the pre-d in their skin. A few minutes in a 3.0 UVI a few times a week would do it. They more commonly bask half hidden in shade. For example, tight now, mid summer at 1PM (solar noon with daylight savings) I get a UVI of 9.0 in full sun. But 2 feet into the shade, where it is more comfortable, I still get a UVI of 1.5 - 2.0. That is enough for a tortoise to properly start synthesizing pre-d in probably 15 - minutes time. The chemicals in the pre-d conversion process also carry a lot of other health benefits to the tortoise, and they have a longer life in the bloodstream than most viatamins. So proper exposure will create levels in the bloodstream that will carry the tortoise through several weeks of no UVB exposure if conditions change.

The gradient created by giving zones of 4.0 all the way to 0 is beneficial, and hatchlings in particular would never really bask in full sun. They would obtain all their UVB and pre d synthesis needs sitting under cover of bushes where they probably are getting an effective UVI of 2.0 or so. So, again, what are you trying to duplicate "from the wild"?

Advocating the use of UVI card readers is quite a dangerous proposition. In fact, there is no other meter on the market I would personally trust my tortoises well being with than the solarmeter 6.5. Even their solarmeter 6.2 can be misleading to use. It is a very costly and laborious production to make a meter that reads specifically the wavelength of light needed for D3 synthesis. A complex algorithm must be incorporated to produce a reading that applies to that specifically. All the card readers and other meters read strength of UV radiation, but that does not mean the 297nm wavelength is in the light being emmited at all. IN fact, the big problem detected with the early compact fluorescent bulbs was only finally resolved by the use of the solarmeter 6.5. The 6.2 was the meter of choice back then and gave perfectly fine readings. But when the new 6.5 that was created to specifically weight toward the 295nm wavelength was used, it was found that some compacts were emitting 5 to 6 times the 295nm light as they were supposed to. The "total" UV reading was fine, but when the actual D3 producing wavelength was more isolated, a big problem was uncovered.

I just last month, actually had my meter recalibrated by solarmeter, just to be sure everything is correct. In a personal conversation with the guys designing these meters, they stated they would never trust a meter, or certainly a card, knowing what is involved in getting actual, meaningful results our tortoises' lives and well being count on.

 

[Reptilian Feline]

I use a UVB 10% tube 14W at about 25 cm height above ground. Is it OK to have it on all day, or should I only have it on during mid day? It's a pretty new tube so it should be at its best.

UVI is a lot easier to understand than wavelength. The Ferguson zones makes sense of it.