Question about hatchling size MEE or MEP

[K8E K]

I just received what was supposed to be a MEE (but I'm fairly certain is a MEP, the pectoral scutes are not attached, but it's a bit hard to tell)- and s/he weights in at about 4.1oz. Because of some conversations about care I had with the breeder which raised my "pink flags" and because I'm also fairly certain my "MEE" is a "MEP" (don't get me wrong, I'm actually pretty thrilled about that), I'm just curious: does anyone have some data for size/weight in these guys as littles?

I realize there's no definitive answer re: age related to weight, it's a bit all over the map and hard to tell, but I'm just wondering if this is actually a hatchling rather than the 12-18 month old I was expecting. I'd be interested in just hearing if anyone has experience with hatchlings and what they weighed in generally, same for slightly older hatchlings. Really, any age/weight data would be helpful for me! I had a hard time finding much via google.

Mainly, I'm curious, and would like to have some range to compare.

Beyond that I'M SO EXCITED and really need somewhere to nerd out so my partner can get some relief from my "tortoise facts" (the MEE's and MEP's are a new species for me).

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. I don't keep that species, but 4.1 ounces is 116 grams. That is not a hatchling. Where did you get it? If it is not clear whether or not its MEP or MEE, you might have an intergrade.

@Will or @Yvonne G both have some experience in this realm.

 

[tortdad]

Post some pics so we can geek out with you

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Hi,

If the pectoral scutes do not meet it is not an M.e.p. Without locality data on the adult breeders that is the best answer I can give. That seems to be as near a black and white way of putting it.

About (?) 1996 some intergrades were produced with some "didn't think they were large enough" adults. Their pectoral scutes reached about half the distance to the center line. I have seen reportedly wild caught with that much pectoral scute too. Most M.e.e. that I have seen have very small triangle shaped pectoral scutes.

The image for determining the subspecies in this article is pretty good. https://www.tortoise.org/archives/manouria.html

Last year I hatched out many M.e.p., they were all just a little over and inch to about 1.25 inches long. They hatched in August 2016. Today they are all over five inches except two which for some reason are a little behind the growth curve and are 4 to 4.25 inches. I sold one that was in between the large and small neonates. About 4.5 inches.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I just received what was supposed to be a MEE (but I'm fairly certain is a MEP, the pectoral scutes are not attached, but it's a bit hard to tell)- and s/he weights in at about 4.1oz. Because of some conversations about care I had with the breeder which raised my "pink flags" and because I'm also fairly certain my "MEE" is a "MEP" (don't get me wrong, I'm actually pretty thrilled about that), I'm just curious: does anyone have some data for size/weight in these guys as littles?

I realize there's no definitive answer re: age related to weight, it's a bit all over the map and hard to tell, but I'm just wondering if this is actually a hatchling rather than the 12-18 month old I was expecting. I'd be interested in just hearing if anyone has experience with hatchlings and what they weighed in generally, same for slightly older hatchlings. Really, any age/weight data would be helpful for me! I had a hard time finding much via google.

Mainly, I'm curious, and would like to have some range to compare.

Beyond that I'M SO EXCITED and really need somewhere to nerd out so my partner can get some relief from my "tortoise facts" (the MEE's and MEP's are a new species for me).

One clear image, I'll make my own opinion.

 

[K8E K]

Hello and welcome. I don't keep that species, but 4.1 ounces is 116 grams. That is not a hatchling. Where did you get it? If it is not clear whether or not its MEP or MEE, you might have an intergrade.

@Will or @Yvonne G both have some experience in this realm.

Thanks! Hm, yeah, I thought also maybe an intergrade. I eventually would like to have a pair, but wanted to start with one to make sure I get care nailed down- and I'm glad I did because I do want to make sure what I have before having a pair!

I'm sort of hesitant to say where I got it because I'm still on the fence on whether it was a trustworthy source or not, and I don't want to call anyone out if I'm actually in the wrong It just seemed like the recommendation of care was all wrong, and mostly counter to what I've seen here/what the original zoological accounts were.

 

[K8E K]

Hi,

If the pectoral scutes do not meet it is not an M.e.p. Without locality data on the adult breeders that is the best answer I can give. That seems to be as near a black and white way of putting it.

About (?) 1996 some intergrades were produced with some "didn't think they were large enough" adults. Their pectoral scutes reached about half the distance to the center line. I have seen reportedly wild caught with that much pectoral scute too. Most M.e.e. that I have seen have very small triangle shaped pectoral scutes.

The image for determining the subspecies in this article is pretty good. https://www.tortoise.org/archives/manouria.html

Last year I hatched out many M.e.p., they were all just a little over and inch to about 1.25 inches long. They hatched in August 2016. Today they are all over five inches except two which for some reason are a little behind the growth curve and are 4 to 4.25 inches. I sold one that was in between the large and small neonates. About 4.5 inches.

Sounds like the sizing is right, which is a relief

 

[K8E K]

Here "she" is!! (whoops, I see I attached two of the same. sorry)!

 

[K8E K]

Here "she" is!! (whoops, I see I attached two of the same. sorry)!

She's obviously not thrilled about being shipped and held all in the same day...!

 

[K8E K]

She's obviously not thrilled about being shipped and held all in the same day...!

Also, despite my reservations re: conversations about care and MEE vs. MEP she seems very active and healthy and is already eating and that is top priority for me. Just want to make sure I'm on the right track and I'm trying to be super cautious and as informed as possible, hence the size questions! Thanks for the response, I feel loads better!!

 

[Yvonne G]

Mep all the way, not intergrade.

 

[teresaf]

Here "she" is!! (whoops, I see I attached two of the same. sorry)!

View attachment 208419 View attachment 208420

Nice looking M.E.P. you got there! Get ready to watch the bigger grow! I have data still of the weights of mine for the first 2 years I had them... I'll find the info. I write the info on my scale box.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Mep all the way, not intergrade.

I agree.

If you could seek images of the same of the adult breeders that would 100% squash any doubters.

 

[teresaf]

I just received what was supposed to be a MEE (but I'm fairly certain is a MEP, the pectoral scutes are not attached, but it's a bit hard to tell)- and s/he weights in at about 4.1oz. Because of some conversations about care I had with the breeder which raised my "pink flags" and because I'm also fairly certain my "MEE" is a "MEP" (don't get me wrong, I'm actually pretty thrilled about that), I'm just curious: does anyone have some data for size/weight in these guys as littles?

I realize there's no definitive answer re: age related to weight, it's a bit all over the map and hard to tell, but I'm just wondering if this is actually a hatchling rather than the 12-18 month old I was expecting. I'd be interested in just hearing if anyone has experience with hatchlings and what they weighed in generally, same for slightly older hatchlings. Really, any age/weight data would be helpful for me! I had a hard time finding much via google.

Mainly, I'm curious, and would like to have some range to compare.

Beyond that I'M SO EXCITED and really need somewhere to nerd out so my partner can get some relief from my "tortoise facts" (the MEE's and MEP's are a new species for me).

Here are the M.E.P. weight charts for my two that I promised...I couldn't download it for some reason so I copied and pasted....I guess I could take a picture and download the pic...

SIMON
MEP1
@ 4.5 month old = 125 grams(3.75 inches) (jan20,2015)
@ 5.5 month old = 135 grams
@ 6.25 month old = 158 grams
@ 7.5 month old = 198 grams
@ 8.0 month old = 222 grams
@ 8.50 month old = 257 grams
@ 9.0 month old = 274 grams(5/25/15)
@ 10.0 month old = 321 grams
@ 11.0 month old = 398 grams
@ 12.0 month old = 490 grams
@ 13.0 month old = 590 grams
@ 13.50month old = 690 grams
@ 14.25month old = 798 grams
@ 15.0 month old = 821 grams
@ 15.50month old = 867 grams
@ 16.0 month old = 958 grams
@ 16.75month old = 931 grams(1/24/16)
@ 18.25month old = 1186 grams
@ 24.0 month old = 2146 grams
@ 29.0 month old = 2230 grams(3/20/17)
@ 31.0 month old = 2326 grams

HELGA
MEP2
@ 4.5 month old = 131 grams(3.75 inches)
@ 5.5 month old = 146 grams
@ 6.25 month old = 181 grams
@ 7.5 month old = 224 grams
@ 8.0 month old = 249 grams
@ 8.50 month old = 284 grams
@ 9.0 month old = 309 grams(5/25/15)
@ 10.0 month old = 375 grams
@ 11.0 month old = 430 grams
@ 12.0 month old = 511 grams
@ 13.0 month old = 587 grams
@ 13.50month old = 667 grams
@ 14.25month old = 722 grams
@ 15.0 month old = 826 grams
@ 15.50month old = 809 grams
@ 16.0 month old = 918 grams
@ 16.75month old = 953grams(1/24/16)
@ 18.25month old = 1172 grams
@ 24.0 month old = 1886grams
@ 29.0 month old = 2330 grams(3/20/17)
@ 31.0 month old = 2400 grams

 

[K8E K]

Here are the M.E.P. weight charts for my two that I promised...I couldn't download it for some reason so I copied and pasted....I guess I could take a picture and download the pic...

SIMON
MEP1
@ 4.5 month old = 125 grams(3.75 inches) (jan20,2015)
@ 5.5 month old = 135 grams
@ 6.25 month old = 158 grams
@ 7.5 month old = 198 grams
@ 8.0 month old = 222 grams
@ 8.50 month old = 257 grams
@ 9.0 month old = 274 grams(5/25/15)
@ 10.0 month old = 321 grams
@ 11.0 month old = 398 grams
@ 12.0 month old = 490 grams
@ 13.0 month old = 590 grams
@ 13.50month old = 690 grams
@ 14.25month old = 798 grams
@ 15.0 month old = 821 grams
@ 15.50month old = 867 grams
@ 16.0 month old = 958 grams
@ 16.75month old = 931 grams(1/24/16)
@ 18.25month old = 1186 grams
@ 24.0 month old = 2146 grams
@ 29.0 month old = 2230 grams(3/20/17)
@ 31.0 month old = 2326 grams

HELGA
MEP2
@ 4.5 month old = 131 grams(3.75 inches)
@ 5.5 month old = 146 grams
@ 6.25 month old = 181 grams
@ 7.5 month old = 224 grams
@ 8.0 month old = 249 grams
@ 8.50 month old = 284 grams
@ 9.0 month old = 309 grams(5/25/15)
@ 10.0 month old = 375 grams
@ 11.0 month old = 430 grams
@ 12.0 month old = 511 grams
@ 13.0 month old = 587 grams
@ 13.50month old = 667 grams
@ 14.25month old = 722 grams
@ 15.0 month old = 826 grams
@ 15.50month old = 809 grams
@ 16.0 month old = 918 grams
@ 16.75month old = 953grams(1/24/16)
@ 18.25month old = 1172 grams
@ 24.0 month old = 1886grams
@ 29.0 month old = 2330 grams(3/20/17)
@ 31.0 month old = 2400 grams

This is amazing, you are amazing! Thank you so much. I'm charting her now and this is so great. I suppose I should switch over to the species specific area, I have more to ask/discuss

 

[K8E K]

This is amazing, you are amazing! Thank you so much. I'm charting her now and this is so great. I suppose I should switch over to the species specific area, I have more to ask/discuss

That is super interesting- mine weighing in at 116 grams (supposedly at 12 mo old) is far smaller- I'd guess based on this (I know, 2 isn't a sample size, but still!)- I have something nearer a 3-5 mo

 

[K8E K]

I just received what was supposed to be a MEE (but I'm fairly certain is a MEP, the pectoral scutes are not attached, but it's a bit hard to tell)- and s/he weights in at about 4.1oz. Because of some conversations about care I had with the breeder which raised my "pink flags" and because I'm also fairly certain my "MEE" is a "MEP" (don't get me wrong, I'm actually pretty thrilled about that), I'm just curious: does anyone have some data for size/weight in these guys as littles?

I realize there's no definitive answer re: age related to weight, it's a bit all over the map and hard to tell, but I'm just wondering if this is actually a hatchling rather than the 12-18 month old I was expecting. I'd be interested in just hearing if anyone has experience with hatchlings and what they weighed in generally, same for slightly older hatchlings. Really, any age/weight data would be helpful for me! I had a hard time finding much via google.

Mainly, I'm curious, and would like to have some range to compare.

Beyond that I'M SO EXCITED and really need somewhere to nerd out so my partner can get some relief from my "tortoise facts" (the MEE's and MEP's are a new species for me).

Ah hah- I double checked my info and the age is probably just right, she's "well started". Indeed she is

 

[teresaf]

This is amazing, you are amazing! Thank you so much. I'm charting her now and this is so great. I suppose I should switch over to the species specific area, I have more to ask/discuss

You're very welcome! I remember what it was like when mine were small. I didn't have anyone to tell me if they were growing good or not because not very many people have them. The ones that do didn't keep that information, or at least didn't post it. It's nice to see how yours stacks up to others. Weighing them often helps to verify whether they are striving or not.

I always bathe mine before feeding since being wet stimulates these guys and makes them want to eat. Warning though, they eat more than a regular tortoise. They'll eat you out of house and home.... they're pigs! How I did it was, the first year and a half I'd throw them in the kitchen sink in an inch or so of 90-100f water for about 20-30 min. Then I'd let the water out and place food in front of them. Right in the sink. It's washable : ) Weekly, when they were done eating I would weigh them. Easy-peasy! Boy, my kitchen sink stayed ALOT cleaner back then...I like bleach : )

These guys love really high humidity so closed chamber is best. I kept mine at 80% humidity from day one. The glass was always fogged. Temps between 75(night time) and basking spot of 90. I got really lucky and found a 200 gallons low profile tank on Craigslist. 7' x 2' of walking space for them. All I had to do is buy Plexiglass for the top. Of course, that was my 3rd enclosure! They do get easier to set up as you get more experienced...hahaha...

 

[braindead]

Hi Teresaf,

Can you give the weight of your MEP for 36 month please ?

Here are the M.E.P. weight charts for my two that I promised...I couldn't download it for some reason so I copied and pasted....I guess I could take a picture and download the pic...

SIMON
MEP1
@ 4.5 month old = 125 grams(3.75 inches) (jan20,2015)
@ 5.5 month old = 135 grams
@ 6.25 month old = 158 grams
@ 7.5 month old = 198 grams
@ 8.0 month old = 222 grams
@ 8.50 month old = 257 grams
@ 9.0 month old = 274 grams(5/25/15)
@ 10.0 month old = 321 grams
@ 11.0 month old = 398 grams
@ 12.0 month old = 490 grams
@ 13.0 month old = 590 grams
@ 13.50month old = 690 grams
@ 14.25month old = 798 grams
@ 15.0 month old = 821 grams
@ 15.50month old = 867 grams
@ 16.0 month old = 958 grams
@ 16.75month old = 931 grams(1/24/16)
@ 18.25month old = 1186 grams
@ 24.0 month old = 2146 grams
@ 29.0 month old = 2230 grams(3/20/17)
@ 31.0 month old = 2326 grams

HELGA
MEP2
@ 4.5 month old = 131 grams(3.75 inches)
@ 5.5 month old = 146 grams
@ 6.25 month old = 181 grams
@ 7.5 month old = 224 grams
@ 8.0 month old = 249 grams
@ 8.50 month old = 284 grams
@ 9.0 month old = 309 grams(5/25/15)
@ 10.0 month old = 375 grams
@ 11.0 month old = 430 grams
@ 12.0 month old = 511 grams
@ 13.0 month old = 587 grams
@ 13.50month old = 667 grams
@ 14.25month old = 722 grams
@ 15.0 month old = 826 grams
@ 15.50month old = 809 grams
@ 16.0 month old = 918 grams
@ 16.75month old = 953grams(1/24/16)
@ 18.25month old = 1172 grams
@ 24.0 month old = 1886grams
@ 29.0 month old = 2330 grams(3/20/17)
@ 31.0 month old = 2400 grams

 

[teresaf]

Hi @braindead sorry I didn't get back to you in a timely manner. My daughter had borrowed my scale and I had not weighed them in a few months which is very unusual for me. I love that scale and didn't want to buy another one so I was waiting on her to return it. When she did return it I had lost your post. I don't have the 36 month weight but I have a couple of the other months. Here is what I have.....

MEP1 SIMON
@ 32.0 month old = 2620 grams
@ 33.0 month old = 2755 grams
@ 34.0 month old = 2890 grams
@ 38.0 month old = 3408 grams

MEP2 HELGA
@ 32.0 month old = 2712 grams
@ 33.0 month old = 2810 grams
@ 34.0 month old = 2950 grams
@ 38.0 month old = 3552 grams

Again sorry I didn't get back with you sooner and welcome to the forum! @K8E K you might be interested in this information...