Question about outside habitat for 10 month old Sulcata

[Nessie]

I haven't posted in awhile, but my Sulcata (Spica) is now 10 months old and doing well. She has long outgrown her indoor enclosure (she only goes in there to sleep), I have been taking her outside to her outdoor enclosure every morning as soon as it is warm enough and bringing her back in when the temps fall.

Her outdoor pen is 8.5x11 feet. Spica is 10 months, 6 1/8 inches long and 840g. I plan to build an indoor heated habitat in a couple of weeks, but I know that she enjoys being outside. How chilly is too chilly for her at this time?

I live in Ohio, so I have been bringing her indoors into her (a bit too small) habitat whenever it is below 72 outside. I give her baths daily still. (When she hit 8 months, I gave her baths only 2-3 times a week then she had a new shell growth that was noticeably higher than the previous, so I quickly went back to daily baths)...I believe she is still in need of humidity often to prevent pyramiding (but I also wonder if it could be her meals or the lack of sun in Ohio this year). As soon as I began giving her daily baths again her new growth smoothed out noticeably.

My question is...What temps should she be enduring outside without any other source of heat? And, she is outside grazing (bluegrass, different grass mix, and half of her enclosure with wild "weeds" - dandelion, clover, lambs quarter- and kale and mustard), getting Mazuri after her bath with mixed salad greens (spring mix) for her to eat indoors. Is there anything else I can do with her diet? Also, we in Ohio have had unseen amounts of cloudy skies, cold temps, and rain this summer. Could it be that she is not getting adequate sunlight? I stopped using UV in her indoor habitat as she is outside everyday grazing.

I will post a photo of her. Please if there is anything I could be doing "better" let me know. this tortoise means the world to me and I want to give her/him/them the happiest least pyramid-y life one has to offer

Thanks in advance! I love the tortoise forum and can not express how much I have learned to be a better tortoise caregiver because of this place

 

[wellington]

She looks great. even though it's cloudy out, she is still getting some uv. If she gets a couple hours a week of sunlight, you don't need a uvb. @Tom can help further.

 

[Tom]

She and you are both doing fine. I think you ought to still have a large indoor enclosure for inclement weather days. What will you do in winter?

 

[Tortoisefanatic88]

Wow she looks great. Such smooth growth

 

[Nessie]

Sorry to not respond sooner. I was busy finishing up classes and wanted to wait until I was planning out the structure I am wanting to build for Spica.

My plan is to build an indoor habitat for her to use this winter. It will be in a room dedicated to this purpose and be anywhere from 6X8 t0 9X12 feet. I am working on the blueprints now and hope to begin building it within the next week. I have 3 weeks to spend working on it before my classes begin again.

I have no idea what I am doing, but I am wanting to design and build something that is ideal for her needs. Keeping in mind her needs for grazing, heat, UV, a hide box, and plenty of exercise, this is what I am brainstorming...

I want to have a grow lamp securely hung above several cat litter trays full of grass mix and other nutritious plants, a basking area with UV light, a hide box with possibly hay or coco substrate? and maybe 2 levels so that she can have more space to walk around. Eventually I will build a shed in the backyard for the winters but she is just too young for me to be comfortable with that this winter (and probably the next few winters after). I just want to continue to give her ample space. The thing I am concerned about is the humidity. I still give her baths every (sometimes every other) day. When I stopped doing this I immediately noticed her new growth ring was higher than the previous. To build this big indoor area I am thinking it would almost have to be open air. But I think it should be alright if I continue giving daily soaks. Also I will need to experiment a bit with the lamps and heating. I don't know how much heat the different options for lamps would produce. I looked through the enclosure threads and have not yet found something that is matching what I have in mind.

Here are some specific questions I have:

Is it alright to build an open air enclosure for her? If not, what would other options be for a large scale closed enclosure?
If so,
What is the best substrate for an open air enclosure?
Should I use a heat lamp or a different heat source?
What would you recommend for living plants? And what substrate would be best to plant them in?
What are the benefits of making a 2 level enclosure?
Lastly, are there any things I should be cautious about when building her structure? What type of wood/materials are best?

Any input is very much appreciated! And if there are other threads where this has already been addressed, I would love to read them. Thank you for reading and responding, this forum has been such a valuable resource for me and my Sulcata.

 

[Nishikigoi's Torts.]

What is the best substrate for an open air enclosure?
Should I use a heat lamp or a different heat source?
What would you recommend for living plants? And what substrate would be best to plant them in?
What are the benefits of making a 2 level enclosure?
Lastly, are there any things I should be cautious about when building her structure? What type of wood/materials are best?

I have my sulcata in an open top tub, keeping the humidity is a challenge to say the least but it is very much possible. For a substrate I use a peat moss and coco coir mix that's about 4-5" deep. I've been growing asparagus fern in my enclosure and it's been doing just fine getting new growth and slightly larger in the time that I've had it. As an alternative to a heat lamp I've been seeing people using like a heat panel, or something like that, in closed enclosures though. As to the benefit of a 2 level enclosure other than extra space I don't know. I'm no expert to tortoises and I'm sure someone much more knowlegable than me will come along to help you more.

 

[Tom]

Here are some specific questions I have:

Is it alright to build an open air enclosure for her? If not, what would other options be for a large scale closed enclosure?
If so,
What is the best substrate for an open air enclosure?
Should I use a heat lamp or a different heat source?
What would you recommend for living plants? And what substrate would be best to plant them in?
What are the benefits of making a 2 level enclosure?
Lastly, are there any things I should be cautious about when building her structure? What type of wood/materials are best?

1. If you build an open topped enclosure, you will need to heat and humidify the entire room. Best to build a closed chamber. Like this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/
Imagine what would happen if you submerged an open topped cup of coffee in a swimming pool. That is what is happening with an open topped enclosure where you want warm humid air, in a colder drier room. Now put a top on your coffee cup before submerging in the pool. See the difference?
2. Orchid bark is the best substrate for indoor sulcatas. It can be bought in bulk very cheaply at gardens centers. It is "fir bark". Sometimes they call it "Pathway Bark". Just make sure to get the fine grade stuff, not the coarse chancy stuff.
3. Heat lamps work, but they will use them excessively in a cold enclosure. Your ambient will need to be warm. Very difficult to do in a cold basement with an open top.
4. Any plants will need to be potted or they will be trampled and eaten.
5. I would not bother with a 2 level if you have the space for a large one level enclosure.
6. Regular plywood and 2x4s will work fine. Do NOT use OSB or any other type of particle board. You can use a plastic liner or find a suitable paint, which is not easy.

Here is another example. I don't know that this heating strategy will work for you, but check out the enclosure:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/

 

[Nessie]

Thanks so much @Tom !
I have cleaned out the room I plan to use for the enclosure. I have 10x10ft space but that is taking up the Entire floor. So basically I want to build something that I can place Spica in over winter and inclement weather for the next year or two. Obviously I don't want to build on the entire floor as I need walking room, so I was thinking anywhere from 7x7 to 7x9 feet. I would like to attempt a CLOSED enclosure and was thinking of using the plans you shared but adding extra flip open doors on top for easy access as the space is so large.

I still have a few questions...and every time I think about it I have a few more... I am wondering about heating/UV appliances mostly. I think I will grow her greens apart from the structure and then swap out trays of fresh greens every week, as well as supplementing her diet accordingly. I would like to build the enclosure tall enough for her to have space to grow vertically, maybe hanging lights at a certain height and then raising them when the temps would be too concentratedly hot on her carapace. I guess experimenting with the heat source before building is a must, want to make sure it isn't scorching hot where her carapace lies.

The immediate questions I have are mostly concerning recommendations for the heating appliances, UV light fixtures, and a good thermometer that can check temps at different locations. I want to preorder these things so that I can build with them in mind.

Please keep in mind I have a 11 month old: she is 2 pounds and 6 3/4 inches.

I noticed that you used 2 12x12in heating elements for a 3x6 space (for babies). Would I need to say double that amount for a 7x7 space? Or is she old/big enough to use less heat? What heater(s) would you recommend?

As for UV: what bulb would you recommend and should I place it alongside a basking lamp? Should I offer more than one UV area? Intuitively I would think a basking area with a lamp and UV close to her food would be adequate.

How deep should I make the substrate? Honestly I love the Coco substrate because it is resistant to becoming funky and also keeps in all the humidity. But I am happy to switch to Orchid Bark if that is better. I have also heard that I should be using or introducing hay? Should I do that? if so, when?

Also, could you please send me a link to a good quality thermometer to check temps around the enclosure?

The last question I have is I would like to know what is a good temperature gradient for the enclosure?

Thankfully I have enough time to get this set up and run the appliances and test out the temps I want her to be happy/healthy.

Thank you SO much for all the feedback. I know that these things have each been addressed in previous posts, but it helps to ask directly about my circumstance instead of pulling things from other enclosures that are not designed the same. Just a few hours ago someone sent me a photo that was super upsetting. They wanted to show off a Sulcata that someone in my town owned and brought out for a visit, this tort was so sad I think it is in the early stages of MBD. Really upsets me. I believe as caretakers of these torts, we need to do it right, and to help others not to make these mistakes. Thanks again! I will post photos of my progress once I begin construction

also...ps for Tom: how did your Mazuri/supplement free torts turn out? I feed mine Mazuri often, was just curious.

 

[Tom]

Thanks so much @Tom !
I have cleaned out the room I plan to use for the enclosure. I have 10x10ft space but that is taking up the Entire floor. So basically I want to build something that I can place Spica in over winter and inclement weather for the next year or two. Obviously I don't want to build on the entire floor as I need walking room, so I was thinking anywhere from 7x7 to 7x9 feet. I would like to attempt a CLOSED enclosure and was thinking of using the plans you shared but adding extra flip open doors on top for easy access as the space is so large.

I still have a few questions...and every time I think about it I have a few more…(1.) I am wondering about heating/UV appliances mostly. I think I will grow her greens apart from the structure and then swap out trays of fresh greens every week, as well as supplementing her diet accordingly. I would like to build the enclosure tall enough for her to have space to grow vertically, maybe hanging lights at a certain height and then raising them when the temps would be too concentratedly hot on her carapace. I guess experimenting with the heat source before building is a must, want to make sure it isn't scorching hot where her carapace lies.

The immediate questions I have are mostly concerning recommendations for the heating appliances, UV light fixtures, and a good thermometer that can check temps at different locations. I want to preorder these things so that I can build with them in mind.

Please keep in mind I have a 11 month old: she is 2 pounds and 6 3/4 inches.

(2.)I noticed that you used 2 12x12in heating elements for a 3x6 space (for babies). Would I need to say double that amount for a 7x7 space? Or is she old/big enough to use less heat? What heater(s) would you recommend?

As for UV: what bulb would you recommend and should I place it alongside a basking lamp? Should I offer more than one UV area? Intuitively I would think a basking area with a lamp and UV close to her food would be adequate.

(3.)How deep should I make the substrate? Honestly I love the Coco substrate because it is resistant to becoming funky and also keeps in all the humidity. But I am happy to switch to Orchid Bark if that is better. I have also heard that I should be using or introducing hay? Should I do that? if so, when?

(4.)Also, could you please send me a link to a good quality thermometer to check temps around the enclosure?

(5.)The last question I have is I would like to know what is a good temperature gradient for the enclosure?

Thankfully I have enough time to get this set up and run the appliances and test out the temps I want her to be happy/healthy.

Thank you SO much for all the feedback. I know that these things have each been addressed in previous posts, but it helps to ask directly about my circumstance instead of pulling things from other enclosures that are not designed the same. Just a few hours ago someone sent me a photo that was super upsetting. They wanted to show off a Sulcata that someone in my town owned and brought out for a visit, this tort was so sad I think it is in the early stages of MBD. Really upsets me. I believe as caretakers of these torts, we need to do it right, and to help others not to make these mistakes. Thanks again! I will post photos of my progress once I begin construction

(6.)also...ps for Tom: how did your Mazuri/supplement free torts turn out? I feed mine Mazuri often, was just curious.

1. One of the best things about a closed chambers is that you need only a fraction of the heating electricity since you are containing ALL of your heat where you want it. You won't need a lot of heating elements to maintain ambient. I make my closed chambers 24" tall and this gives me all the room I need to hang regular ceramic based fixtures. If you went 30" or 36" you'd have even more flexibility. Dean has one that my father made that is 48" tall, but the lights hang halfway down in the enclosure. I would use high mounted CHE's to maintain ambient in a large chamber. The RHPs are not effective when they are mounted high up and the intention with that 2015 Growth thread is to provide ambient heat over a large area instead of a localized area in a relatively small enclosure. CHE's on a thermostat would serve your purposes better.
2. See above. How much you need will depend on room temp outside the enclosure, how thick the enclosure walls are, how sealed it is, etc… Basically you will need to pick something, run it, watch the temps and adjust as needed. For something 7x9' I would start with a couple of 150 watt CHEs on a thermostat and see if that is enough. If not, add more.
3. I would use orchid bark. You tortoise is too big for coir anymore. Orchid bark holds moisture well too, and in a closed chamber, this really won't be a concern anyway.
4. @G-stars posted a link to a good thermometer hygrometer in another thread and now I can't find it… Maybe he will see this and be kind enough to post it again.
5. 100 under the basking area to 80 at the low end. I never let ambient drop below 78-80 and I let ambient creep up into the low 90s in summer.
6. That experiment is still ongoing and progressing fine. Those 6 babies are growing slower than normal for me, but now I don't know if it is because of the lack of Mazuri or because of the unconventional way I am heating them. I should have only changed one variable. My mistake.

 

[G-stars]

Just saw it. @Tom this is the link. Feel free to post it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WTH3NQ/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

I've tried quite a few out on the market and this one is definitely superior to all the others I've tried. Yes it's more expensive but you get what you paid for.

 

[Nessie]

Thanks for all the info!

I am stuck on what to do about UV. If the enclosure is 2 1/2 to 3 feet tall, that would reduce significantly any UV from bulbs attached to the top of the enclosure. Any ideas how to workaround this?

 

[Careym13]

Thanks for all the info!

I am stuck on what to do about UV. If the enclosure is 2 1/2 to 3 feet tall, that would reduce significantly any UV from bulbs attached to the top of the enclosure. Any ideas how to workaround this?

When you hang the light, just hang it lower or higher depending on the temperature and how high it needs to be above carapace height. I hang mine by the cords and wrap the cords around the poles on the top of my enclosure and just made adjustments as needed until I got proper temps.