Redfoot Tortoise Threw Up

[TapperCade]

Hello Everyone,

I have a Redfoot Tortoise that I've had for quite some time. About a month ago I realised that I was not taking care of him properly as a kid and have been making improvements to his living conditions. One of the things I've been trying to do is give him a better diet. From what I've read it seems his diet should be 40% greens, 40% fruit, and 20% protein. Over the past month or so, I've been giving him some fruit with his greens just about every day. Yesterday though, I decided to give him a scrambled egg. I didn't use oil when I made it and I didn't salt or pepper it. Today he soaked for way longer than he usually does though which didn't concern me at first but now has me wondering if he wasn't feeling well. After his dinner today he actually threw up all of his fruit. Now I'm very concerned. Is it possible he just ate too quickly? Or could it be side effects from the egg? I've heard parasites are a possibility, so I guess next time he poops I can check it for that? What would I be looking for to confirm it was parasites?

Thanks everyone.

 

[TapperCade]

I'd like to add that basically everything he threw up was solid. He threw up entire blueberries and cut up strawberries.

 

[COmtnLady]

It is no wonder that the the pieces were exactly as he'd eaten, their digestive systems work slowly and probably hadn't had a chance to work on the food yet. Were there egg bits in it?

What would you say was the quantity? Pictures would be helpful. Also, what quantity of egg would you say you offered?

I usually feed 60-80% greens, 20-40% fruit (what you and I think of as fruit is far sweeter than what would be found in the area of Brazil they evolved in. Try squashes, and cactus pads if you are going to use a high proportion of fruit).

Over the past month or so, I've been giving him some fruit with his greens just about every day.

What do you mean by "just about every day"? Are you skipping days of feeding?




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[TapperCade]

It is no wonder that the the pieces were exactly as he'd eaten, their digestive systems work slowly and probably hadn't had a chance to work on the food yet. Were there egg bits in it?

What would you say was the quantity? Pictures would be helpful. Also, what quantity of egg would you say you offered?

I usually feed 60-80% greens, 20-40% fruit (what you and I think of as fruit is far sweeter than what would be found in the area of Brazil they evolved in. Try squashes, and cactus pads if you are going to use a high proportion of fruit).


What do you mean by "just about every day"? Are you skipping days of feeding?




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I've removed the puke and his left over dinner from his enclosure already, so they were kind of mixed together in the garbage. But from what I can tell, there was no egg in his throwup, just what he ate for dinner tonight. There were also no worms or anything in his throw up from what I could tell. But I'd guesstimate he threw up ~3 blueberries, and a strawberry. Maybe one razberry or two as well.

I offered him one scrambled egg, so I guess one egg? He seemed to enjoy it, but I guess his stomach isn't agreeing with it. It's worth noting that this is probably his first time eating something like that, so he isn't used to it at all.

No, I'm feeding him every day. I meant I was feeding him fruit just about every day with his greens. I didn't feed him fruit yesterday as I gave him the egg and some greens. I figured it was "protein day".

But just as a timeline

Yesterday I gave him a scrambled egg and some greens

today he was pretty lazy, mostly soaked in his water bowl for hours today. He usually gets in, hangs out for a bit, and then walks out. Returning a few times a day.
I fed him greens and fruit today (banana, blueberries, razberries, strawberries) I feed him the last three pretty often, Banana is new for him. Since I've been on my Tortoise Improvement Program I've been wanting to give him some new foods he hasn't experienced before.

After Eating he went into his little castle that he likes to sleep in and threw up his food.

I guess it's also worth noting that when I went to add water to his Coco, I ended up adding way too much and some started leaking out. I was moving his enclosure around a bit to make sure I had gotten all the water, so maybe he got panicked from the enclosure moving a bit? I've done that before though and he hasn't thrown up so I'm assuming the egg is the culprit.

 

[zovick]

I've removed the puke and his left over dinner from his enclosure already, so they were kind of mixed together in the garbage. But from what I can tell, there was no egg in his throwup, just what he ate for dinner tonight. There were also no worms or anything in his throw up from what I could tell. But I'd guesstimate he threw up ~3 blueberries, and a strawberry. Maybe one razberry or two as well.

I offered him one scrambled egg, so I guess one egg? He seemed to enjoy it, but I guess his stomach isn't agreeing with it. It's worth noting that this is probably his first time eating something like that, so he isn't used to it at all.

No, I'm feeding him every day. I meant I was feeding him fruit just about every day with his greens. I didn't feed him fruit yesterday as I gave him the egg and some greens. I figured it was "protein day".

But just as a timeline

Yesterday I gave him a scrambled egg and some greens

today he was pretty lazy, mostly soaked in his water bowl for hours today. He usually gets in, hangs out for a bit, and then walks out. Returning a few times a day.
I fed him greens and fruit today (banana, blueberries, razberries, strawberries) I feed him the last three pretty often, Banana is new for him. Since I've been on my Tortoise Improvement Program I've been wanting to give him some new foods he hasn't experienced before.

After Eating he went into his little castle that he likes to sleep in and threw up his food.

I guess it's also worth noting that when I went to add water to his Coco, I ended up adding way too much and some started leaking out. I was moving his enclosure around a bit to make sure I had gotten all the water, so maybe he got panicked from the enclosure moving a bit? I've done that before though and he hasn't thrown up so I'm assuming the egg is the culprit.

If the tortoise didn't throw up any of the egg, it probably wasn't the reason for the regurgitation.

There is a protozoan called Cryptosporidium which causes regurgitation. There is also another disease called Intranuclear Coccidiosis of Tortoises (TINC) which can cause it.

You should monitor whether the tortoise is able to keep its food down over the next 7-10 days, and if not, a vet visit is most likely in order to determine the reason.

If everything is fine over the period, maybe the egg or some other possibility was the cause as you mentioned, but numerous people feed their tortoises eggs (and even the egg shells) without causing regurgitation.

Good luck!

 

[Jackson7]

Here's a data point for you. The first time I fed my redfoots bananas they also threw up.

I've heard redfoots are really fond of bananas so my theory at the time was that I gave them too much and they simply ate too much in their excitement. Similar situation where they went into their hide and threw up.

If they throw up again I'd talk to a vet

 

[TapperCade]

Here's a data point for you. The first time I fed my redfoots bananas they also threw up.

I've heard redfoots are really fond of bananas so my theory at the time was that I gave them too much and they simply ate too much in their excitement. Similar situation where they went into their hide and threw up.

If they throw up again I'd talk to a vet

I'm hoping this is the case. I let him soak today in case he needed to pass anything along. He ended up pooping this. Does this mean anything to anyone? I work from home so I'll be monitoring him closely today. I've seen people say to wait a day or two to give them any more food when they throw up. Is this the case? If I do feed him today should I stick mostly to greens? Thanks!

 

[zovick]

I'm hoping this is the case. I let him soak today in case he needed to pass anything along. He ended up pooping this. Does this mean anything to anyone? I work from home so I'll be monitoring him closely today. I've seen people say to wait a day or two to give them any more food when they throw up. Is this the case? If I do feed him today should I stick mostly to greens? Thanks!

View attachment 397415

Is the granular looking matter sand? It really looks like it.

If so, the tortoise may have an intestinal blockage due to sand impaction. This same thing killed one of my rarest tortoises (a 20" male Astrochelys yniphora). Please make sure not to use sand as any part of the substrate for your tortoise.

 

[TapperCade]

Is the granular looking matter sand? It really looks like it.

If so, the tortoise may have an intestinal blockage due to sand impaction. This same thing killed one of my rarest tortoises (a 20" male Astrochelys yniphora). Please make sure not to use sand as any part of the substrate for your tortoise.

It does look like it, but I do not have sand at all in my enclosure. I have a wet layer of Coco Coir substrate with a layer of Orchid Bark on top of it.

 

[Jackson7]

Did you poke it with a stick or something to get a sense of its hardness?

 

[TapperCade]

Hey everyone so I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that he got up and walked around a good bit. He walked right back over to his little pool and has been soaking since, just like yesterday.

The bad news is that he kept trying to eat something off the ground? I cleaned up whatever it was, potentially a small bit of poop I missed while cleaning up. When I pulled him away from it, he started making sounds that sounded like the ones he made yesterday before he threw up. However this time, he did not throw up. His enclosure stunk this morning, and I finally foung the source. It seems that in his hide he pooped A TON last night. Here is an image of the poop. It was very smelly and wet. The poop kind of mixed together with some of the substrate.

I have made an appoitment with a vet tomorrow in the morning.

Also @Jackson7 I didn't really poke around in it too much. When the water drained it mostly went with it, so it was pretty dusty and loose at a minimum.

 

[zovick]

Hey everyone so I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that he got up and walked around a good bit. He walked right back over to his little pool and has been soaking since, just like yesterday.

The bad news is that he kept trying to eat something off the ground? I cleaned up whatever it was, potentially a small bit of poop I missed while cleaning up. When I pulled him away from it, he started making sounds that sounded like the ones he made yesterday before he threw up. However this time, he did not throw up. His enclosure stunk this morning, and I finally foung the source. It seems that in his hide he pooped A TON last night. Here is an image of the poop. It was very smelly and wet. The poop kind of mixed together with some of the substrate.

I have made an appoitment with a vet tomorrow in the morning.

Also @Jackson7 I didn't really poke around in it too much. When the water drained it mostly went with it, so it was pretty dusty and loose at a minimum.
View attachment 397426

I hope you have found a good exotics vet. The poop doesn't look too bad, but is not 100% normal IMHO.
Are those hairs in the poop? Do you have a dog or a cat or are they some other type of fiber?

Do not let the vet give your tortoise any vitamin injections. They are not helpful for tortoises and do more harm than good.

 

[TapperCade]

I do have a dog, but she's never been anywhere close to his enclosure. There are strands in the substrate I used. There's a picture of it in this thread that was in, when I was building his enclosure.

Here is the thread: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/a...xture-should-be-from-redfoot-tortoise.230802/

There are some strands of fiber in it, but not much it's mostly dirt. He's much more active now but is countiously trying to eat the substrate. Both the bark and the dirt, whatever he can get his beak on. I've given him some collard greens and some blue berries. He ate both and has not thrown up, but he will not stop going for the substrate. I'm unsure of what to do now.

 

[TapperCade]

Update: he is now happily eating his collard greens after I kept picking him up when he was attempting to eat his substrate. His lethargy seems to be gone as well, he's been running around for the past hour or so. Let's hope he can keep everything down.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Good to know! Did you give him a whole chicken egg or just a small piece? My redfoot also tries to stay in the water and is much less active after protein-heavy meals for a couple of days. Throwing up is definitely not a good thing, but could be because of the amount of ingested food (I never offered a whole chicken eggs - only a quarter or so or a couple of quail eggs). Also, if he has never tried animal protein or sugary fruit, his gut flora needs some time to adjust. Start slowly and then add more (and it's up to you to control the intake). It's hard to overfeed tortoise with leafy greens but is certainly doable with high-energy foods like fruit, meat or pellets.

 

[EppsDynasty]

I'm a little late to respond but have read some of your post in the past few days here's my take ......

That sand could be months old and been stuck in there. There was a thread that we extensively discussed 'Sand' (I'm not sure how to find it now), but in that discussion I explained 'Hydrophobic' properties in sand and soil. This sand may have been ingested long ago BUT in a Hydrophobic state and it will NOT become 'Hydrophilic' in the gut. It will sit there for long periods and never absorb water. In that pic of the poop I (and I am no expert) see a lack of bacterial processing and notice areas in it that look undigested. There is also what has been described as fibers like hair, visible in the pic of poop. These look like large Coco Coir fibers to me ... are you using a good brand of Coco Coir and is it fine grade? NutiBac DF probiodics may be in order here to assist in a proper bacterial function in the gut. Now if my thoughts are true stay FAR AWAY from any oils.....putting oils into the gut will only exacerbate the Hydrophobic properties that may exist in the gut. To me there seems to be enough water in the system it seems to be a bacteria issue .... lack of bacteria is a cause for materials to become Hydrophobic. In my opinion you are going to be shooting in the dark with a vet even a good one.

 

[TammyJ]

There may be nothing really wrong with your tortoise except perhaps if he is being kept in incorrect temperatures and humidity levels, and maybe the enclosure is too small.
If you provide us with details of how he is kept, maybe we can get some more ideas about what may be happening, instead of your going to a vet unnecessarily?

 

[TapperCade]

Hello everyone, I'm sorry for going MIA it's been a crazy 48 hours but I do have some positive updates!

For one, I did end up bringing my tort to a vet. Honestly, I just wanted some peace of mind. I had also booked the appoitment in a panic, and at that point figured it was worth going instead of just paying a cancellation fee. I liked the vet a lot! She seemed to know her stuff and was asking similar questions to y'all. What temps, how far the UVB was from my torts shell, what I had been feeding her, and so on. Here's a summary of some of what was discussed.

• My tort "lightning" who I've been referring to as a man for her entire life is in fact a woman. Her new nickname is now "Lightning McQUEEN". Ever since I got her she's had a very slight indent at the bottom of her shell which made me believe she was a man, but it seems that isn't the case. Regardless, it's been an adjustment.
• They said Lightning was quite strong! The vet also said that although she does have pyramiding (a lot of it happened before I got her, although as a kid I did not take proper care of her, so I probably didn't help) her shell isn't soft or anything and is sturdy, so that's good.
• They took X-rays of her and found nothing out of the oridinary which I thought was good, also no eggs.
• The main steps of improvment the vet recommended to me were to start giving her calcium, specifically w/o D3. I remember having calcium powder when I first got her, but I swapped to power pellets somewhat recently. I thought that was making her pyramiding worse though, as I think it was way too much protein. If anyone has any Calcium powder recomendations please let me know, I'll pick it up ASAP. Also, how oten do you offer it to your Redfoots?
• She also said to soak her a bit more often. I'm not sure how much y'all soak your Redfoots, if you could give me an idea of how often you do that'd be very helpful.
• Last but not least the vet said that Lightning was quite hungry. This didn't surprise me as between her throwing up and coming to the vet I didn't feed her too too much. I gave her about a handful of collard greens and a few blueberries. The Vet said that I should offer her something to graze on basically at all times. Now here's where I'm a bit confused. I would say that I offer my tortoise a pretty sizble salad each day. A mix of maybe some Kale, Collard Greens, and some fruits. She usually eats the fruit right away and then maybe comes back later to munch on some greens. The Vet said I should pick up some hay and recommended these two products. Product 1 Product 2. She basically said I should have something like this or her to graze on at all times between the bigger meals, but I kind of feel like she kind of already does that? She eats what she wants and then kind of comes back to eat again later. I'm afraid of overfeeding her too much and having another situation like this happen again.

Generally speaking she's doing much much better. She's no longer lethargic, is running around a lot, and is soaking in her water bowl when she feels like it. The Vet said to introduce one new food a week if I'm going to introduce new foods. I definetely added too many things to her diet too quickly. She has not thrown up again since I posted the original post in this thread.

To answer a few questions from y'all

I offered Lightning an entire scrambled chicken egg... I'm going to assume that was maybe too much. It was definetely too much for her first!

Her enclosure is roughly 6.5 feet long x 3.5 feet wide. Not totally optimal, but this was created rather quickly to ensure that I could start getting her heat and humidity up. The temperature of her enclosure sits between 80F-84F. The thing I'm trying to work on most is getting her humidity up. I just got a digital hydrometer and at the moment it's sitting at 67%. It's usually between there and 70%. I do realise that 70% is the floor though and that I need to get it up. If you have any suggestions on how to do this I'm all ears as I massively messed up trying to increase it by adding water. I added WAY too much water to the corners of her enclosure, so much so that it started leaking out, and did some water damage to the tiling on ceiling of my basement. With some help today I was able to slip some PVC liner below the enclosure, so that shouldn't happen again, but the substrate is quite damp. Maybe I just need more of it? At the moment I'd say I'm at about 4" of Coco Choir and a layer of orchid bark on top of that. I will add that I found a pretty big gap in the green house lining after the construction today... Where the zipper of the green house is it seemed a bit part of the green house liner ripped, I patched it up with some water-proof tape and hopefully that helps.

Sorry for the long winded post, and thank you all for your advice, I know I put like 30 questions in here. It was a scary 48 hours but we seem to be on the up n up.

 

[TammyJ]

Thanks for the update! One thing I saw that is strange - the vet telling you to give your Redfoot tortoise hay. They don't eat it, they are not grass eating tortoises like eg. Sulcatas. Try her with pumpkin vine flowers and leaves instead! Also dandelion and clover.

 

[COmtnLady]

RedFoots are a tropical species and NEED at least 84% humidity and 84F, all the time, 24/7/365, for their whole lives. The only way to keep the heat and humidity in is with a closed top. If they get colder or dryer than that, their health will decline.

Also, what we (humans) like as fruit is a LOT sweeter than what these torts typically find in nature. Drop your sweet fruit down to an occasional strawberry, OR five or fewer blueberries, OR an inch or less of banana. It sounds like you're feeding too much of these super-sweet fruits. Try a smaller-than-golfball sized amount of melon, a couple disks of zucchini, even a small slice of other squash/pumpkin. Pretty much any "salad" you eat, your tort will probably like (only a very minimal bit of cabbage/broccoli/"farty" veggies - and NO onions). What Tammy said above are great choices, too. Along with dandelions (from not sprayed or recently fertilized lawns/fields).

Radicchio is a big favourite of most - while not a fruit and not green (though its sometimes called Italian Lettuce) it does give variety to their diet and they seem to love it. Put in 3-4 leaves or a chunk about 1/6 of the head of radicchio.



Are you feeding Mazuri 5M21? (The package has a Star Tortoise on the front and it says "specifically" for RedFoot and Stars.) Mazuri makes many types, all of which are species specific. I soak about 1/2 cup in warm water and feed it every other day, or sometimes farther apart.
The reason I ask is that when mine poops in her soak a day or three later, it breaks apart from the other things in the turds and looks gritty like your picture shows.

Another thing about using Mazuri - it is balanced. You do NOT want (or need) to put any calcium on her food when feeding Mazuri every other day, or you'll un-balance their carefully created formula... adding it would be too much calcium. Only feed Mazuri every other day or two.
Also, you have a cuttlebone in the enclosure as back-up, that your tort can use any time if it wants a little more, so there is little chance of your tort being short on calcium.


re: protein ~
I think you shocked her system with a whole egg after nothing for so long. Stomachs need to "know" which and how much digestive juices to produce - you need to "introduce" all foods slowly. A small portion to start with, for a few feedings, then a little bit more for a few feedings, until over six weeks or so the serving is appropriate for the size and species.
Try boiling an egg and giving her only 1/4 of it at first. Or if you have some chicken try a small piece, similar-sized to the 1/4 of an egg (that has been plainly cooked - no salt or seasonings - maybe boiled, or roasted with no seasonings or oil/butter). Chop it finely, no piece as big as 1/8"cube. ANYTHING you feed your tortoise should either be whole (so the tortoise can choose its own bite size), or chopped so small that there is zero way for your tortoise to choke on it.

Remember, tiny pieces, or whole.

Or try meal worms. They are an excellent source of protein and are sold at pet stores (but are expensive to buy, IMO - they are bugs after all! And especially since they are super easy to raise if your tortoise likes them - I currently have too many because they are so easy to raise, so I give a cottage cheese container to a friend who raises chickens). Buy a small container the first time, that contains 25 to 50 worms, and only offer about 5 or 10 to your tort the first time. If she's never had them before she may not be sure what to do with them. (Don't worry if they crawl off the dish, just pick them up and return them to the dish. Don't worry about any that get loose because water kills them so they won't take over your enclosure. They are a larval stage of a black beetle. If you do want to raise some, I'll bore you to tears with info, but no reason to do that here right now.)


*****

I'm seriously concerned that your vet suggested hay for a non-grassland species. That's as much a red flag as suggesting vitamin shots. It says she doesn't KNOW RedFoot tortoises and may do something else wrong for your tortoise. With yours needing HIGH humidity, the hay is a HUGE molding problem. That's a very bad thing! Think respiratory infections.

Have you had a chance to read this yet? It has couple things we have since discovered to be bad for tortoises (eg: sand as or in the substrate causes impactions) but it is a good reference piece for every RedFoot keeper. Its got a nifty map of where they evolved that I use a lot!

Redfoot Tortoise Care Sheet

NOTE: I do not keep redfoots, and I only have one tortoise in total. With this in mind, remember that I am in no way an expert, and this should not be used as cold hard proof of how to raise a redfoot. I used information from great keepers on this forum to put everything together. This care...

tortoiseforum.org

Soaking ~
I soak my RedFoot for an hour or so, every other day. Once in a while there will be another day in-between if I have something come up. The water has to be kept warm ALL the time she's in it. Lukewarm, 95F is good to aim for if you are measuring (I just run the water on the inside of my wrist. Easy-peasy. If it feels too hot on your wrist, its too hot, if it feels too cool, it needs to be warmer). There is almost no such thing as too much soaking. It keeps your tort hydrated and warm and you aware of how she's processing food and such.
The other thing - when she's in her enclosure mine almost always sits in the water dish (which is close to being under a CHE so is warm all the time). I think you had mentioned something similar about yours sitting in the water dish, and its a good thing.




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