- Joined
- Jun 8, 2016
- Messages
- 56
Sally went to the vet this weekend, Dr King said she looked healthy, great. Her weight was good, her shell looked great, so much for the naysayers who criticized me on her food
Sally vet
- Thread starter Diane771
- Start date
- Status
Huh? How can a vet look at the exterior of a tortoise and tell you that what you're feeding it is good? She has a lot of new growth on her carapace, and it looks pretty good to me, but for all I know you're feeding her dog food. No way to tell by looking. Also, her beak needs a trim.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2016
- Messages
- 56
Get a life! Who on earth would feed a tortoise dog food- You??? She had her trimmings and you are beyond. When you get your Vet license in reptiles I might take you seriously otherwise you know nothing
You are talking to the head moderator and the world's nicest person. Then I'll tell you that everything she told you is correct and I can't see where she was offensive in the least...you on the other hand must be a regular on FB cuz we don't act like that here...and her beak is way too long...
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2016
- Messages
- 56
stop obviously she is not the world's nicest person for suggesting that anyone would feed their Russian Tortoise dog food. She and you owe me an apology. You can contact my Vet Dr. King at Watson Road Veterinarian clinic in St Louis Mo who says Sally would not need a beak trim for another 6 months! Here is the phone number 314-644-1544
I used to feed my box TURTLE cat food. Wether this was or is good, I don't know. It was before internet and just going on books. IF you think you are correct in care and nutrition then you do what you want They are just trying to help you, according to the years of experience.
Just to clarify - I never suggested anyone was feeding dog food to their tortoise. I merely said, just looking at a tortoise one could not know what was being fed to the tortoise. . . might be dog food. . . might be cranberries. . . one can't tell by looking what the tortoise is eating (wondering how the vet could tell)
Sorry, I misunderstood or misread. Please delete my post if you want to.
I don't owe you an apology for anything. I was trying to let you know you're being an ***, and keep you from being banned or something....I will push for it now....moderator????pm me
Not that I really want to get in an argument on here but by replying I probably will. I looked up this Veterinary practice because AS A veterinarian, I am fully aware of how specialized exotic pet care is. I also know that many general practitioners have an interest in exotics but that doesn’t mean they have a lot of experience. None of the vets in this practice lists board certification in any specialty let alone exotics. The services listed for the practice only mentions treatment of dogs and cats. I don’t know why the OP came out angry and swinging. Many people have differing opinions but Yvonne’s response was not in any way rude and I don’t see any justification for the OPs claims
It's ok. The OP misunderstood my post. Sometimes the written word doesn't come out like as if it were spoken. You all can let it lie. No need to defend me.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2012
- Messages
- 716
All other issues aside, I must say that Russian is certainly in the top 1-2% for shell color. I don’t know if I have seen a brighter yellow on one. I am not sure if the color is from a certain region of their range or just random variation, but I like it.
Steve
Steve
Your tortoise has beautiful coloring, and I'm glad you took her to the vet. It sounds like you went into this thread with a 'so there!' kind of attitude. Please remember that keeping an open mind, being receptive to constructive criticism, and being willing to learn is in the best interest of our tortoises. I know it doesn't feel good to be told you're doing something wrong. I've made mistakes in the past, which were pointed out to me by knowledgeable keepers like @Yvonne or @Tom and my tortoises are healthier 12 years later than they would have been if I stubbornly continued wrong practices. We all recognize this is YOUR tortoise and nobody can force you to do anything different, since we live in a free country where you can choose to be a good or bad keeper. Clearly you love your tortoise. Many of us started our journey of tortoise keeping based on incorrect or incomplete information. Hopefully, for the sake of our tortoises, we can set aside our egos a little bit, and do better once we know better.
Did you choose your vet from the Tortoise Vet list here on the Tortoise forum? Many vets who claim to be proficient in tortoise care are actually only marginally qualified. So your vet may or may not be qualified to pronounce your tortoise in perfect health.
Personally, without running a blood panel to check for organ function, WBC, and mineral balances, fecal exam to check for healthy poop consistency and presence or absence of parasites, and x-rays to look at bone density and absense of bladder stones, I do not think a tortoise can be pronounced "in perfect health"... Those are expensive and stressful for a tortoise though, so I wouldn't subject a healthy animal to those tests. Looking at a tortoise from the outside, the most can be said is 's/he appears to be healthy'...
In tortoises, everything happens slowly. So, wrong feeding (I'm assuming you are defensively referencing some past thread?) can take a while to show negative effects.
Here is what I see looking at your tortoise. This is not meant as criticism, but to show that some things CAN be interpreted from the outside 'look' at the tortoise:
Her beak is very overgrown, which tells me she is probably eating a lot of soft grocery store foods (rather than tough to bite wild weeds and wildflowers, preferably grazing on her own rather than being presented a handy pile). I would NOT wait 6 months to trim that beak. Trimming the beak is an easy and quick procedure (which I have performed hundreds of times for tortoises in the local rescue, as well as at tortoise grooming clinics held in our community). Btw, if your vet tells you the tortoise needs to be anaesthetized for it to be done, find a different vet. A good vet tech or vet with tortoise experience will know the proper holds to quickly snap off the overhang and file it smooth.
Her bright yellow shell MAY indicate she is mostly kept indoors. UV from sunlight usually will give the keratin a slightly more olive tint. And the waxy appearance indicates very fast growth, which is common in tortoises kept in captivity, since they get a larger volume of food. There is slight pyramiding visible, which tells me that at some point your tortoise was kept in a too-dry environment. This may have been in your care, or before you got her.
Russian tortoises are resilient, and can survive harsh environments in the wild. This makes them one of the more forgiving species for pet care... Which means one can (for a while) get away with less than ideal foods, UV, heat, living space etc. - but since the information on how to 'do it right' is available pinned to the top of the RT forum, why not try to collectively do our best for our tortoises? With proper care, she will outlive you.
Did you choose your vet from the Tortoise Vet list here on the Tortoise forum? Many vets who claim to be proficient in tortoise care are actually only marginally qualified. So your vet may or may not be qualified to pronounce your tortoise in perfect health.
Personally, without running a blood panel to check for organ function, WBC, and mineral balances, fecal exam to check for healthy poop consistency and presence or absence of parasites, and x-rays to look at bone density and absense of bladder stones, I do not think a tortoise can be pronounced "in perfect health"... Those are expensive and stressful for a tortoise though, so I wouldn't subject a healthy animal to those tests. Looking at a tortoise from the outside, the most can be said is 's/he appears to be healthy'...
In tortoises, everything happens slowly. So, wrong feeding (I'm assuming you are defensively referencing some past thread?) can take a while to show negative effects.
Here is what I see looking at your tortoise. This is not meant as criticism, but to show that some things CAN be interpreted from the outside 'look' at the tortoise:
Her beak is very overgrown, which tells me she is probably eating a lot of soft grocery store foods (rather than tough to bite wild weeds and wildflowers, preferably grazing on her own rather than being presented a handy pile). I would NOT wait 6 months to trim that beak. Trimming the beak is an easy and quick procedure (which I have performed hundreds of times for tortoises in the local rescue, as well as at tortoise grooming clinics held in our community). Btw, if your vet tells you the tortoise needs to be anaesthetized for it to be done, find a different vet. A good vet tech or vet with tortoise experience will know the proper holds to quickly snap off the overhang and file it smooth.
Her bright yellow shell MAY indicate she is mostly kept indoors. UV from sunlight usually will give the keratin a slightly more olive tint. And the waxy appearance indicates very fast growth, which is common in tortoises kept in captivity, since they get a larger volume of food. There is slight pyramiding visible, which tells me that at some point your tortoise was kept in a too-dry environment. This may have been in your care, or before you got her.
Russian tortoises are resilient, and can survive harsh environments in the wild. This makes them one of the more forgiving species for pet care... Which means one can (for a while) get away with less than ideal foods, UV, heat, living space etc. - but since the information on how to 'do it right' is available pinned to the top of the RT forum, why not try to collectively do our best for our tortoises? With proper care, she will outlive you.
One final thing. I was curious about the thread about food you were referring to above. I think it was this one: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-food-for-sally.194344/page-2#post-1971835
In which you were saying that Fluker's diet (the pebbles with high fruit content) made her nice and active. The reason they make her active is she is basically experiencing a sugar rush. Russian tortoises should NOT eat corn or peas (you mention this in the thread). The peas you are feeding have too high protein content. This can cause renal issues - which often show themselves in accelerated beak growth and a sloped back half of a shell, btw. And corn is mostly starch, which gets metabolized to sugar, and causes accelerated shell growth and can make a tortoise get fat.
I also found this comment you made 5 months ago on someone's thread, in which you say Sally loves her 20gal glass tank. I do see many photos and video of her out and about outside, so hopefully she doesn't spend a lot of time in the 20gal. But please know this is not even a suitable size for a hatchling. A tiny 1.5" hatchling needs twice that much space.
Please don't feel attacked. You love your tortoise, and have been keeping her for multiple years with the care standards you believe are correct. You have been listening to the advice of a vet who might not know all your care practices. Does he know your habitat is a 20gal tank? Does he know you include corn and peas with your food offerings? If he knows and supports it, he is wrong. If he doesn't know, he is operating off incomplete information.
Here is @Tom 's very comprehensive care sheet. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-best-way-to-raise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/ - it will tell you that your tortoise needs at least a 4ft x 8ft designated habitat with appropriate lighting and substrate. It will tell you a list of good foods to feed. And it will tell you a few things to avoid. Try to read it with an open mind.
Your Malamutes are beautiful. Being a good malamute breeder and keeper doesn't automatically make you a good tortoise keeper though - care is very different! Nobody doubts that you care and love your pets. But please, please, please be open and willing to change your care practices.
It looks like in your other threads you are generally unwilling to take advice, and interpret constructive criticism as people 'picking on you'... This is not what is happening.
Finally, here is a thread that shows a better example of how a tortoise keeper should react when someone experienced like @wellington gives them constructive criticism. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/this-took-forever-russian-tort-enclosure.193842/
Do you see how the OP considers the advice, and makes the changes? It probably smarted a little, after they had spent time and money making the enclosure, having to invest more time and money to make changes. But s/he didn't get defensive or insult the people who took time out of their lives to give advice. They considered the advice, thanked for it, and made the changes.
If you post in a public forum expecting nothing but rainbows and butterflies, you will come out of the experience feeling hurt and upset. But please know that the people here who advise are some of the most respected and knowledgeable tortoise keepers in the US. Some of them speak at conferences that vets attend to learn from. Some of them are involved in conserving tortoise species that are severely endangered. They have lives and are busy, and still choose to gift forum members some of their valuable time. I encourage you to open your kind, set aside your ego, be willing to learn and improve your care. If you are not willing to, and don't want people to say anything negative to you, then feel free to silently read on here and not post. Folks here won't let bad keeping methods stand when people post about them. I am thankful for this.
In which you were saying that Fluker's diet (the pebbles with high fruit content) made her nice and active. The reason they make her active is she is basically experiencing a sugar rush. Russian tortoises should NOT eat corn or peas (you mention this in the thread). The peas you are feeding have too high protein content. This can cause renal issues - which often show themselves in accelerated beak growth and a sloped back half of a shell, btw. And corn is mostly starch, which gets metabolized to sugar, and causes accelerated shell growth and can make a tortoise get fat.
I also found this comment you made 5 months ago on someone's thread, in which you say Sally loves her 20gal glass tank. I do see many photos and video of her out and about outside, so hopefully she doesn't spend a lot of time in the 20gal. But please know this is not even a suitable size for a hatchling. A tiny 1.5" hatchling needs twice that much space.
Please don't feel attacked. You love your tortoise, and have been keeping her for multiple years with the care standards you believe are correct. You have been listening to the advice of a vet who might not know all your care practices. Does he know your habitat is a 20gal tank? Does he know you include corn and peas with your food offerings? If he knows and supports it, he is wrong. If he doesn't know, he is operating off incomplete information.
Here is @Tom 's very comprehensive care sheet. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-best-way-to-raise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/ - it will tell you that your tortoise needs at least a 4ft x 8ft designated habitat with appropriate lighting and substrate. It will tell you a list of good foods to feed. And it will tell you a few things to avoid. Try to read it with an open mind.
Your Malamutes are beautiful. Being a good malamute breeder and keeper doesn't automatically make you a good tortoise keeper though - care is very different! Nobody doubts that you care and love your pets. But please, please, please be open and willing to change your care practices.
It looks like in your other threads you are generally unwilling to take advice, and interpret constructive criticism as people 'picking on you'... This is not what is happening.
Finally, here is a thread that shows a better example of how a tortoise keeper should react when someone experienced like @wellington gives them constructive criticism. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/this-took-forever-russian-tort-enclosure.193842/
Do you see how the OP considers the advice, and makes the changes? It probably smarted a little, after they had spent time and money making the enclosure, having to invest more time and money to make changes. But s/he didn't get defensive or insult the people who took time out of their lives to give advice. They considered the advice, thanked for it, and made the changes.
If you post in a public forum expecting nothing but rainbows and butterflies, you will come out of the experience feeling hurt and upset. But please know that the people here who advise are some of the most respected and knowledgeable tortoise keepers in the US. Some of them speak at conferences that vets attend to learn from. Some of them are involved in conserving tortoise species that are severely endangered. They have lives and are busy, and still choose to gift forum members some of their valuable time. I encourage you to open your kind, set aside your ego, be willing to learn and improve your care. If you are not willing to, and don't want people to say anything negative to you, then feel free to silently read on here and not post. Folks here won't let bad keeping methods stand when people post about them. I am thankful for this.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2016
- Messages
- 56
I am being an a-- because I defended myself from accusations that were completely false? Look at my original post sent about Sally's trip to her vet. Then someone replied I feed Sally Dog Food and her beak needs trimming what
Why would I choose the vet you suggested? I have a Vet who specializes in reptiles? The nasty comments I received are were totally out of line. My post was a comment about Sally going to the vet. Please reread it and you will see it was not even a drop of "so there" attitude. I am so put off by responses here. I am not some young stupid person. Before I even got Sally I did massive research about Tortoises more probably most people on here. Just because I am an animal lover and an AKC breeder doesn't say I feed Sally dog food. This is what I objected to and want an apology for the pile on. Not everyone here is a Russian Tortoise expert and I thought this was a forum to post your pet and say things without getting attacked. By the way, tell the person who commented to me about FB I haven't been there in years and has nothing to do with anything. If this forum can't be respectful that is your problem. I have never been disrespectful to anyone here unless they commented something out of bounds. I am trying to let you know that I am not the one here who doesn't know about Sally or would take her to anyone I didn't completely trust. So please look inward to the people that started this. I love animals but refuse to be treated like I am unaware of anything to do about Sally. Thank you
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2016
- Messages
- 56
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2016
- Messages
- 56
by VicL at Citysearch August 26, 2009
Great Reptile Vet
★★★★★
I took my Chinese Water Dragon to see Dr. King because I heard that he was THE reptile vet to go to in the STL area. I was concerned that my lizard might have ulcerative stomatitis. It turned out that my lizard was perfectly healthy, but Dr. King gave me advice on how to treat my lizard if I had to in the future, and answered my other numerous questions. Because I take a very active interest in the health of my lizard, it's nice to deal with a vet that I was certain knew what he was doing. I'd happily return to see him in the future.
Pros: has lots of experience with reptiles
So, here is where your 'so there' attitude is reflected.
I don't think anyone was accusing you of feeding your Sally dog food. I think she was saying, the vet can't tell what you are feeding just by looking at her shell, and used dog food as an exaggerated example of what a person could be feeding. You are feeding her some greens, and some wrong veggies (corn, peas), and some wrong fruit (apple) and some wrong pebbled foods (Flukers).
Many of us keepers feel about those Fluker's pebbles similarly as IF they were dog food being fed to a tortoise...
Nobody thinks you are a young thing who didn't do your research. You have made it very clear you are not this.
But even people who have reach the middle of their life (myself included) can make mistakes. Even Ed Pirog's outdated tortoise care book sold at PetSmart still says a tortoise needs at least 2ft x 4ft enclosure. You won't find even an outdated tortoise care book or care sheet on Google that states a 20gal tank is enough for an adult female RT.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2016
- Messages
- 56
It is not the first time I have received off-topic comments about my breeding of dogs. So yes I did react to that comment. You and others have totally left out the part of Sally's feeding of fresh veggies & fruit but jumped on that one issue about an OTC food I said she liked. It has been a big deal because of not very nice comments directed at me as a pet owner
- Status
