Scutes are not growing

[Bronzo]

Does anyone know why scutes are not growing? Bronzlee is 18 months, 159.6 grams. She has had many health issues since we got her. But now she is not growing correctly . An X-ray was done and shows her insides are getting squeezed. Heat, uvb, humidity is all correct. She eats grass and hay mostly. Every other day romaine with calcium on it. Soaks 20-40 min a day. Enclosure is 6feet x 4feet.

 

[wellington]

What exactly is the temps, basking, all over, night and the exact humidity?
What type of lighting and heat are you using?
@Yvonne G @Markw84 @Tom

 

[Bronzo]

Te

What exactly is the temps, basking, all over, night and the exact humidity?
What type of lighting and heat are you using?
@Yvonne G @Markw84 @Tom

Temperature during the day range from 85-90, that is half of the enclosure and around the edge. Basking is 102. She mostly lays around that area being 98. She has a hide in both sides of the enclosure but only sleeps in the one on the hot side. During the night the whole enclosure is 85. Her hide gets a little warmer sometimes, 88 the hottest. Humidity is 75 except basking area 68 hide is 80-85.
We are using a t-5 and a halogen bulb for basking area. We use balanced spectrum bulbs on the other side for the plants.
Thank you for replying!

 

[wellington]

Stop with the halogen and get the incandescent flood bulb for basking
Lower the basking to 100, 95-100.

 

[Bronzo]

Stop with the halogen and get the incandescent flood bulb for basking
Lower the basking to 100, 95-100.

Ok thanks. My husband said it’s an incandescent. But we will raise it. Will that help with her scutes. Growing length wise instead of width

 

[wellington]

No, I doubt it, it's just what needs to be done to house him correctly. If it's an incandescent then that's good. A halogen is too hot and decimating to the shell and could cause problems. The problem yours is having, maybe, but that's a maybe and if it were a halogen.
I sent alerts to 3 members that may know or have an idea of what could cause the scute/shell/insides problem.
But you do want to have everything else correct, so we know housing can be eliminated.

 

[Markw84]

Your tortoise is extremely small for its age. What makes you/the vet feel the insides are "being squeezed"? Normally, the inside organs grow as space is created. Otherwise they do not grow.

The scutes separate by underlying bone expanding beneath them. New keratin is then formed to expand the scute to cover the new gaps. So where you are not getting that expansion, the bone beneath is not growing properly. By the extremely small size and marked pyramiding that occurred when the tortoise was small, it obviously had very poor conditions its first year or so. I would bet on some degree of metabolic bone disease that has affected bone growth now. That is how we see the badly misshapen tortoises. Ones that grew with MBD. Yours did not grow much during that time, but apparently it has taken its toll and you are seeing some bone damage that was done.

I would suggest you do all you can to give the best in conditions now. The recent growth does look much better in the areas that are growing. Ensure plenty of high calcium, high fiber foods with good UVB. The addition of minerall or herptivite a few times a week to ensure good vitamin/minerals would be a good idea.

Young sulcatas are not really grass or hay eaters. Their younger digestive systems is more geared to leafy greens until about 10" - 12" long or about 10 lbs+ in weight. Start feeding a good mix of leafy greens and ideally add some dried Moringa leaves to the meal. Moringa hass the highest calcium content of any greens and all the essential amino acids. Excellent food for a growing tortoise. I add it to every meal I feed to my giant tortoises. I get mine through Kapidolo Farms. Mulberry leaves and Grape leaves are also good sources of calcium.

 

[wellington]

If you can, get the x-ray and post it here. Then Mark and others can see what you and your vet seen. They can then better tell if they are actually squished or not.

 

[Gijoux]

I would like to suggest that you make sure your Calcium has Vitamin D added for better absorption of the calcium. It is possible that your tortoise is unable to make Vitamin D from your UV source.

 

[Bronzo]

Your tortoise is extremely small for its age. What makes you/the vet feel the insides are "being squeezed"? Normally, the inside organs grow as space is created. Otherwise they do not grow.

The scutes separate by underlying bone expanding beneath them. New keratin is then formed to expand the scute to cover the new gaps. So where you are not getting that expansion, the bone beneath is not growing properly. By the extremely small size and marked pyramiding that occurred when the tortoise was small, it obviously had very poor conditions its first year or so. I would bet on some degree of metabolic bone disease that has affected bone growth now. That is how we see the badly misshapen tortoises. Ones that grew with MBD. Yours did not grow much during that time, but apparently it has taken its toll and you are seeing some bone damage that was done.

I would suggest you do all you can to give the best in conditions now. The recent growth does look much better in the areas that are growing. Ensure plenty of high calcium, high fiber foods with good UVB. The addition of minerall or herptivite a few times a week to ensure good vitamin/minerals would be a good idea.

Young sulcatas are not really grass or hay eaters. Their younger digestive systems is more geared to leafy greens until about 10" - 12" long or about 10 lbs+ in weight. Start feeding a good mix of leafy greens and ideally add some dried Moringa leaves to the meal. Moringa hass the highest calcium content of any greens and all the essential amino acids. Excellent food for a growing tortoise. I add it to every meal I feed to my giant tortoises. I get mine through Kapidolo Farms. Mulberry leaves and Grape leaves are also good sources of calcium.

Thanks for your advice. I have had her since she was 46grams. We live in Washington state so not a lot of vets up here know much about these tortoises but mine is working with 2 others, one in Louisiana and Florida. They both have stated that this tortoise should not have lived due to being hatched wrong. So I am giving her (to affectionate to be male.. haha) the best I can do. I have had 3 sets of X-rays done, I’m guessing that’s how the vets realized her insides are growing quicker than her shell.
I have all that stuff from kapidolo farms dried and in shaker containers, I will use more. Should she be getting more calcium? I give it to her every other day, there’s a cuttlebone always available. I use romaine cause she won’t eat it with anything else. I was using collard greens but she ended up have a huge stone (.5grams when she was 120g). Herpavite I was only giving once a week but will do more. What type of leafy greens do you suggest?
I check the uvb monthly and now she’s outside for an hour or so a day.
Would to much heat stop keratin growth? She is in the basking area 80 percent of the day. Shade and water is available to her.
Thanks again for your advice!

 

[Bronzo]

I would like to suggest that you make sure your Calcium has Vitamin D added for better absorption of the calcium. It is possible that your tortoise is unable to make Vitamin D from your UV source.

Ok I have both kinds. I was thinking the same thing except she’s grown width wise and taller.

 

[Bronzo]

No, I doubt it, it's just what needs to be done to house him correctly. If it's an incandescent then that's good. A halogen is too hot and decimating to the shell and could cause problems. The problem yours is having, maybe, but that's a maybe and if it were a halogen.
I sent alerts to 3 members that may know or have an idea of what could cause the scute/shell/insides problem.
But you do want to have everything else correct, so we know housing can be eliminated.

Thank you!!

 

[Tom]

Te

Temperature during the day range from 85-90, that is half of the enclosure and around the edge. Basking is 102. She mostly lays around that area being 98. She has a hide in both sides of the enclosure but only sleeps in the one on the hot side. During the night the whole enclosure is 85. Her hide gets a little warmer sometimes, 88 the hottest. Humidity is 75 except basking area 68 hide is 80-85.
We are using a t-5 and a halogen bulb for basking area. We use balanced spectrum bulbs on the other side for the plants.
Thank you for replying!

These temperatures sound pretty darn good. Humidity should be a little higher. Are you soaking for 30-40 minutes daily?

Definitely make sure you are not using a halogen bulb, and replace that with a standard flood if you are.

What UV levels are you getting under your T5? Where is that bulb mounted? How many hours per day is it on? What size is the enclosure?

Are you soaking for at least 30-40 minutes daily?

How was it "hatched wrong"? What was done incorrectly?

Bladder stones are actually urates and they have three typical contributors:
1. Too much protein.
2. Not enough hydration.
3. Too little exercise/small enclosures.
They are not caused by calcium supplementation or collard greens.

Check this out and look for the sulcata care sheet near the bottom. Food and feeding are discussed at length there. You need weeds, leaves, flowers and opuntia pads. New foods will have to be introduced slowly in small amounts over time. Its okay to use the romain as a base to get this done.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

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[Yvonne G]

Just a note of explanation: the original scutes he was hatched with don't grow. Those dark spaces between the scutes are his new growth. That new growth will keep adding more to the edges of the little original scutes. Your tortoise has been doing quite a lot of growing, so much so that the new growth shows as spaces between the scutes instead of adding on to the edges of the scutes. He's trying to catch up to where he should be size-wise.

Read the info in the links provided, make changes to his diet and add more humidity to his environment and he should turn out ok in the long run.

 

[Bronzo]

These temperatures sound pretty darn good. Humidity should be a little higher. Are you soaking for 30-40 minutes daily?

Definitely make sure you are not using a halogen bulb, and replace that with a standard flood if you are.

What UV levels are you getting under your T5? Where is that bulb mounted? How many hours per day is it on? What size is the enclosure?

Are you soaking for at least 30-40 minutes daily?

How was it "hatched wrong"? What was done incorrectly?

Bladder stones are actually urates and they have three typical contributors:
1. Too much protein.
2. Not enough hydration.
3. Too little exercise/small enclosures.
They are not caused by calcium supplementation or collard greens.

Check this out and look for the sulcata care sheet near the bottom. Food and feeding are discussed at length there. You need weeds, leaves, flowers and opuntia pads. New foods will have to be introduced slowly in small amounts over time. Its okay to use the romain as a base to get this done.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Bronzlee soaks for 30 min a day sometimes longer. When I first got her she was really sick and I talked to you. The breeder said he dry hatches. The uv light is on 12.5 hours a day. The uvb reader reads 2.5-4. The enclosure is 6x4x2 in feet. Her bottom isn’t flat. Shell is hard. Her weight this morning was 174g.

 

[Bronzo]

Your tortoise is extremely small for its age. What makes you/the vet feel the insides are "being squeezed"? Normally, the inside organs grow as space is created. Otherwise they do not grow.

The scutes separate by underlying bone expanding beneath them. New keratin is then formed to expand the scute to cover the new gaps. So where you are not getting that expansion, the bone beneath is not growing properly. By the extremely small size and marked pyramiding that occurred when the tortoise was small, it obviously had very poor conditions its first year or so. I would bet on some degree of metabolic bone disease that has affected bone growth now. That is how we see the badly misshapen tortoises. Ones that grew with MBD. Yours did not grow much during that time, but apparently it has taken its toll and you are seeing some bone damage that was done.

I would suggest you do all you can to give the best in conditions now. The recent growth does look much better in the areas that are growing. Ensure plenty of high calcium, high fiber foods with good UVB. The addition of minerall or herptivite a few times a week to ensure good vitamin/minerals would be a good idea.

Young sulcatas are not really grass or hay eaters. Their younger digestive systems is more geared to leafy greens until about 10" - 12" long or about 10 lbs+ in weight. Start feeding a good mix of leafy greens and ideally add some dried Moringa leaves to the meal. Moringa hass the highest calcium content of any greens and all the essential amino acids. Excellent food for a growing tortoise. I add it to every meal I feed to my giant tortoises. I get mine through Kapidolo Farms. Mulberry leaves and Grape leaves are also good sources of calcium.

Hello. These are pictures of her bottom shell. It is not flat. Has an angle going up towards head. She weighed 174g. This morning. I planted a mulberry tree in her outdoor enclosure and grapes above it. I don’t understand why her bottom is growing and not the top. She can’t put her head down when she stretches out. Any other advice?! Thanks

 

[Tom]

Bronzlee soaks for 30 min a day sometimes longer. When I first got her she was really sick and I talked to you. The breeder said he dry hatches. The uv light is on 12.5 hours a day. The uvb reader reads 2.5-4. The enclosure is 6x4x2 in feet. Her bottom isn’t flat. Shell is hard. Her weight this morning was 174g.

All you can do in a case like this is offer the best possible conditions, which you are. It will be what it will be. The breeder did irreparable damage by starting the baby in a way that is contrary to its biology, and now you are dealing with the effects of that mistake.

 

[Sarah2020]

I recommend keeping a weekly weight log then you will be able to monitor weight gain and loss. Maintain the correct conditions, soaks, diet and enjoy your shelled warrior. Your aiming for slow steady smooth growth.

 

[Bronzo]

All you can do in a case like this is offer the best possible conditions, which you are. It will be what it will be. The breeder did irreparable damage by starting the baby in a way that is contrary to its biology, and now you are dealing with the effects of that mistake.

Ok thank you!

 

[Bronzo]

I recommend keeping a weekly weight log then you will be able to monitor weight gain and loss. Maintain the correct conditions, soaks, diet and enjoy your shelled warrior. You’re aiming for slow steady smooth growth.

I do. I’ve weighed her everyday. Measure her weekly. Thanks