Should they still be sharing an enclosure with behaviour like this? Pls help!

Jessle

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Hi - I have recently been staying with a friend who has two Mediterranean Spur-thighed tortoises. They are both male, both in the the same enclosure and one (Timmy) is smaller than the other (Frank). I am an animal ecology masters student so have been fascinated by their behaviour to one another and have been watching them for 30 minutes over the last few days.

I noticed for the whole 30 minutes whenever Frank went to eat, Timmy (the smaller one) would head butt his shell and bite him until Frank allowed Timmy to mount him. This has happened consistently over the last three days for the whole 30 minute period.

I read a few journals and understand this is fairly standard behaviour from males towards females in a mating period and also in males asserting dominance towards other males. In the latter scenario, I understand once a tortoise is rolled the less dominant tortoise will give the 'winning' tortoise space and usually avoid them.

What I find odd about this scenario is that they have been in the same enclosure for at least the last 30 years so I would have assumed the head butting would have stopped. I have read that the behaviour may continue if there is something wrong with their environment, i.e.:

- they are fighting over food and water (so they need to be fed more)

- incompatible of living in the same space (so they need their own enclosures)

- the enclosure is too small (need their own hutch or larger space)

I spoke to my friend who has looked after them for a few decades but she is confident it is normal behaviour and nothing should change. Has anyone had similar experience? Or have any commentary on what is going on? Or is definitely sure about any changes that should happen to their environment?

Many thanks!!

TL:DR : two male tortoise will not stop head butting even after thirty years of the same enclosure together - does anything in their environment need changing?
 

wellington

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Tortoises should not live in pairs. They are both stressed out and likely not the size they should be. I'm sure they are un too small of an enclosure.
If you would have searched on this forum in seconds you would have come up with hundreds of threads on not keeping tortoises in pairs.
 

TaraMaiden

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I love that the thread TITLE is posed as a question, but the OP seems hell-bent on not taking any heed of the responses. I mean, why bother posting if you're only telling us, and not taking advice? It just seems odd to me to make such an announcement, when nobody's taken issue with the situation in the first place...

I used to have a Driving Instructor who I subsequently discovered had been booked twice for DUI, and four times for speeding. Needless to say, his long career and professional qualifications really didn't count for anything, if everything he did, seemed to contradict all his expertise...
Just saying.......
 

Tom

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Hi - I have recently been staying with a friend who has two Mediterranean Spur-thighed tortoises. They are both male, both in the the same enclosure and one (Timmy) is smaller than the other (Frank). I am an animal ecology masters student so have been fascinated by their behaviour to one another and have been watching them for 30 minutes over the last few days.

I noticed for the whole 30 minutes whenever Frank went to eat, Timmy (the smaller one) would head butt his shell and bite him until Frank allowed Timmy to mount him. This has happened consistently over the last three days for the whole 30 minute period.

I read a few journals and understand this is fairly standard behaviour from males towards females in a mating period and also in males asserting dominance towards other males. In the latter scenario, I understand once a tortoise is rolled the less dominant tortoise will give the 'winning' tortoise space and usually avoid them.

What I find odd about this scenario is that they have been in the same enclosure for at least the last 30 years so I would have assumed the head butting would have stopped. I have read that the behaviour may continue if there is something wrong with their environment, i.e.:

- they are fighting over food and water (so they need to be fed more)

- incompatible of living in the same space (so they need their own enclosures)

- the enclosure is too small (need their own hutch or larger space)

I spoke to my friend who has looked after them for a few decades but she is confident it is normal behaviour and nothing should change. Has anyone had similar experience? Or have any commentary on what is going on? Or is definitely sure about any changes that should happen to their environment?

Many thanks!!

TL:DR : two male tortoise will not stop head butting even after thirty years of the same enclosure together - does anything in their environment need changing?
If you had two dogs and they were constantly fighting, would you just leave them to it? Why would anyone do this with tortoises? This is cruelty. Tortoises should never live in pairs.
 

Jessle

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Tortoises should not live in pairs. They are both stressed out and likely not the size they should be. I'm sure they are un too small of an enclosure.
If you would have searched on this forum in seconds you would have come up with hundreds of threads on not keeping tortoises in pairs.
Hi - thank you for your response. Appreciate the guidance. I want to reiterate that I have been staying in this house for 3 days. They are not my pets. I have little to no knowledge of tortoise but noticed the scenario. I definitely was concerned which is why i posted originally on reddit and this website.
 

Jessle

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They need to be separated.
Thank you for the response.
I love that the thread TITLE is posed as a question, but the OP seems hell-bent on not taking any heed of the responses. I mean, why bother posting if you're only telling us, and not taking advice? It just seems odd to me to make such an announcement, when nobody's taken issue with the situation in the first place...

I used to have a Driving Instructor who I subsequently discovered had been booked twice for DUI, and four times for speeding. Needless to say, his long career and professional qualifications really didn't count for anything, if everything he did, seemed to contradict all his expertise...
Just saying.......
Thank you for your response. I want to reiterate that I have been staying in this house for 3 days. They are not my pets and I have near zero knowledge of tortoise.

Not sure where the animosity comes from but I am certainly not 'hell-bent on not taking any heed of the responses' and I have no clue as to where you get that from any of my messages.

I appreciate your passion for the welfare of tortoise but I was simply setting the scene of the situation. I was not telling anyone how to do anything. I specifically ask the question in the title and say pls help...
 

Jessle

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Thank you for everyone's responses they are appreciated. I want to reiterate:

- These are not my pets.
- I am staying at my father's new partner's house for a week.
- They are my father's partners tortoises.
- They are outside in a 4x4m enclosure.

In a response to everyone's help over the past 24 hours, I will broach the topic with her (the partner) to ensure the animals both get their own enclosures.

For the time being, I have separated the current enclosure with logs so they have their own space.

Would anyone have any other suggestions of things I can do to make them more comfortable?
 

Maggie3fan

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Thank you for the response.

Thank you for your response. I want to reiterate that I have been staying in this house for 3 days. They are not my pets and I have near zero knowledge of tortoise.

Not sure where the animosity comes from but I am certainly not 'hell-bent on not taking any heed of the responses' and I have no clue as to where you get that from any of my messages.

I appreciate your passion for the welfare of tortoise but I was simply setting the scene of the situation. I was not telling anyone how to do anything. I specifically ask the question in the title and say pls help...
Please don't allow anyone to ruin your need for advice...I apologize to you for the member of the UK...she's new here.
You really do need to separate those tortoises. Bullying can be physical and emotional...as you saw when it was feeding time. Frankly, bullying can cause a whole lot of trouble and sometimes can be fatal. Thanks for trying to help them. If you want...tell us how they are kept, then we can give you better advice
 

ZEROPILOT

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These are your friends tortoises right? Try to get them to join the forum. Show them this thread and have them read the caresheet under the species section. Do what you can to get them the right environment.
Thanks for trying to help them.
This is an excellent idea
 
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Jessle

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Thanks for the direction - very much appreciate it - will take a look at the care sheets!
These are your friends tortoises right? Try to get them to join the forum. Show them this thread and have them read the caresheet under the species section. Fo what you can to get them the right environment.
Thanks for trying to help them.
 

Jessle

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Thank you - I think I will follow Wellington's advice. Highlight the forum to the owner and suggest the new enclosure. Have spoken to a carpenter friend already to see if they can make me one. And posted on the 'Wanted' section on tortoise forum.

Thanks for everyones advice.

They are kept outside and from what I know are put into hibernation during the winter. I am having a look through the enclosure section and finding a lot of advice for building inside enclosure but not for building outside enclosures. Any links/reccos would be much appreciated. :)
Please don't allow anyone to ruin your need for advice...I apologize to you for the member of the UK...she's new here.
You really do need to separate those tortoises. Bullying can be physical and emotional...as you saw when it was feeding time. Frankly, bullying can cause a whole lot of trouble and sometimes can be fatal. Thanks for trying to help them. If you want...tell us how they are kept, then we can give you better advice
 

wellington

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The each should have at minimum a 4x8 foot enclosure.
Get 3 pieces of 2x6x8 foot lumber cut one in half and attach the 4 pieces and you have an approx 4x8 foot enclosure frame. Then get 3 pieces of 1x2x8, cut one in half and attach to top of the other boards to make a hang over. This will prevent the torts from climbing out. Then on the bottom of the frame staple chicken wire across the whole bottom to prevent them from digging out, but grass and weeds can still come thru.
If there needs to be a top, you can make a frame out if 1x2x8 cut one in half, attach the 4 pieces staple chicken wire in tip and hinge to the enclosure frame.
Add a clay saucer for water and a hide. If possible place half in shade half in sun. If no shade available then you can add a piece of wood to part of the top to make a shade area. With a little muscle these can be learned up against a building in winter when not used.
The lumber should be available in 10 and 12 feet lengths too if they can go bigger.
 

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