Smooth wild tortoise carapace

[Anyfoot]

Hi everyone.

I just wanted to know peoples opinions on why captive bread(CB) torts are never as smooth as Wild caught(WC).
I have seen some very smooth CB torts on this forum but nothing like a WC tort. Is there a general opinion on why this is or is there facts as to why CB are not as smooth.
Maybe I am totally wrong and some supposedly WC I've seen are actually CB.
Just curious. Does anyone have a photo of a CB that's let say more than 5yrs old and is as smooth as a WC.
I'm aiming at red and yellow foots mainly but any info on any torts is good.

Thank You

Craig

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Craig:

In my opinion, it's because the average tortoise-keeper does not provide the same type of habitat as is found in the tortoise's homeland.

 

[tortadise]

Yvonne pretty much summed it up perfect. In the wild they are survivors and seek shelter in any refuge they can. Lots of times this is under bushes, and dense flora. So they naturally get a "polished" rubbed effect in one of many reasons. Where some species of tortoises found in The wild appear more captive looking are apecimens of extreme arid and sparse flora habitats like tent tortoises, Namaqualand cape(homopus signatus cafer) speckled cape (homopus signatus signatus) eastern African leopards and Northern Territory South African leopards up to botswana. But as a mere general of tortoises they are as Yvonne stated in a perfect habitat and constantly being "polished" by seeking shelter under plants, in burrows etc. so that wears the shell in a way of completely smoothness. Also in the wild they don't get washed, scrubbed or soaked and kept away from the elements like a captive specimen would. So they're shell is also layered with mineral rich soils from mud wallows, dirt debris, etc... Hope that made some sense.

In regards to Redfoots and Yellowfoots which is what you said you were seeking. I have both WC and CB specimens that are quite identical. I'll try and remember to snap some photos for you of the reds. But here's some 12 year old captive Yellowfoots I've had since they were babies that are quite perfectly wild appearance in my opinion. I raised them in a very densely planted greenhouse since they were 4".

Quite smooth.but obvious growth rings are seen. But I do have a WC Redfoot that is the same way and noticeable growth rings are present.

 

[Anyfoot]

Yvonne pretty much summed it up perfect. In the wild they are survivors and seek shelter in any refuge they can. Lots of times this is under bushes, and dense flora. So they naturally get a "polished" rubbed effect in one of many reasons. Where some species of tortoises found in The wild appear more captive looking are apecimens of extreme arid and sparse flora habitats like tent tortoises, Namaqualand cape(homopus signatus cafer) speckled cape (homopus signatus signatus) eastern African leopards and Northern Territory South African leopards up to botswana. But as a mere general of tortoises they are as Yvonne stated in a perfect habitat and constantly being "polished" by seeking shelter under plants, in burrows etc. so that wears the shell in a way of completely smoothness. Also in the wild they don't get washed, scrubbed or soaked and kept away from the elements like a captive specimen would. So they're shell is also layered with mineral rich soils from mud wallows, dirt debris, etc... Hope that made some sense.

In regards to Redfoots and Yellowfoots which is what you said you were seeking. I have both WC and CB specimens that are quite identical. I'll try and remember to snap some photos for you of the reds. But here's some 12 year old captive Yellowfoots I've had since they were babies that are quite perfectly wild appearance in my opinion. I raised them in a very densely planted greenhouse since they were 4".

Quite smooth.but obvious growth rings are seen. But I do have a WC Redfoot that is the same way and noticeable growth rings are present.
View attachment 120151
View attachment 120152

Wow they look good. I notice they are in a very wet environment, is this always the case.
You mentioned a very densely planted greenhouse, This is what I am aiming to achieve with my dedicated tort building. I am going to need some major help with plants and tree types when I get to this stage off of the more experience on here. I just want your opinion on one thing that I and dawn are debating on. I am going to end up with the indoor heated area at 15x20ft at 7ft high and going to an 8ft apex in the middle. A double cavity wall that is insulated. The back and left wall will have no windows in it as they are up to outside walls. On the right wall there will be three 3ft square double glazed windows and the front wall will have 1 window of the same size plus the door for us and hatch for torts to come and go. In the roof I will need some strong UVB lights. Will this be enough UVB and natural light for plants and torts. Or do you think I will need some sky windows in the roof for extra light. I was of the opinion that in the winter the more windows I have the harder it will be to maintain correct temperature. Dawn thinks not.
Sorry, know this is off topic but if I started a thread for every question I have your internet server would crash. lol

 

[Anyfoot]

Yvonne pretty much summed it up perfect. In the wild they are survivors and seek shelter in any refuge they can. Lots of times this is under bushes, and dense flora. So they naturally get a "polished" rubbed effect in one of many reasons. Where some species of tortoises found in The wild appear more captive looking are apecimens of extreme arid and sparse flora habitats like tent tortoises, Namaqualand cape(homopus signatus cafer) speckled cape (homopus signatus signatus) eastern African leopards and Northern Territory South African leopards up to botswana. But as a mere general of tortoises they are as Yvonne stated in a perfect habitat and constantly being "polished" by seeking shelter under plants, in burrows etc. so that wears the shell in a way of completely smoothness. Also in the wild they don't get washed, scrubbed or soaked and kept away from the elements like a captive specimen would. So they're shell is also layered with mineral rich soils from mud wallows, dirt debris, etc... Hope that made some sense.

In regards to Redfoots and Yellowfoots which is what you said you were seeking. I have both WC and CB specimens that are quite identical. I'll try and remember to snap some photos for you of the reds. But here's some 12 year old captive Yellowfoots I've had since they were babies that are quite perfectly wild appearance in my opinion. I raised them in a very densely planted greenhouse since they were 4".

Quite smooth.but obvious growth rings are seen. But I do have a WC Redfoot that is the same way and noticeable growth rings are present.
View attachment 120151
View attachment 120152

Mind is tripping now. So really we are better off with tight hides for our torts to squeeze into and not large cave type holes.

 

[tortadise]

Unfortunately the pen they were reared in I have demolished that greenhouse. But they were very difficult to find when they were in there. Plants consisted of ficus trees, 8 species of palms, and a bunch of others I don't remember I just got them because they were cool tropical plants. The old greenhouse didn't have the plants in the big pens but a planter box about 3' wide and 60' long the entire length of the old building. I divided it up into 12' sections and put smaller forest dwellers in there. Placed food and let them be until they got bigger then put them into an actual enclosure. Now the new building has the plants inside each enclosure. But they're only a year old on maturity. The old building had 7 years of tropical plant growth so the plants were very large and over growing the ceiling. Which is why I took it down. Besides other reasons too. It was quite hard maintaining the tortoises in it to be honest. I could barely walk in there it was so overgrown. It wasn't practical for captive keeping. It was too wild but without the ecosystem of edibles and the tortoises to fend for themselves. But low ferns and hard stocky plants they really favor that create a canopy to seek shelter under.

 

[tortadise]

Yeah I'd say a hint of wild with plants etc but the functionality of captive keeping is best.

 

[tortadise]

It's quite wet in there indeed. But keep in mind there's a 16" soil layers drainage system I utilized. Keeping animals this wet with standard dirt/mulch would expedite shell rot and fungus growth. There's a lot more to take into consideration when replicating a true wild environment. It's an nature ecosystem with bugs, soils, plants, oxygen, minerals, air quality blah blah.

 

[Anyfoot]

I was really trying to approach it as an internal tropical garden that torts live in.
I am going to have the whole thing on a concrete slab foundation. Then fill it with 18" of top soil. Before I fill it I want to build caves with the natural stone I have everywhere around in my garden(like tonnes of the stuff) That are about 18" high, so when filled with soil its level with the cave tops. In the caves the soil/mulch will be about 8" deep so they walk down into them. These caves won't be to big as I need to reach into them if required. Also some sort of barrier over the top of caves so they can't fall from above into the entrances. Also I wanted to build in a miniature river system before filling with soil. So this would involve a rock face at the back wall that water trickles down into a gully system opening up into a shallow pool for them to bathe in then narrowing again into a filter system then pumped back up to the rock face. So this all needs building to the level of 18". For maintenance purposes the hose pipe from the pump up to rock face will be threaded through drain pipes. So I can replace the hose pipe if or when it perishes.
The whole thing will be treat like any garden where we will maintain the upkeep as per outdoor garden.(I hope).
Its ambitious I know, but I'm determined to succeed and provide my torts with the best i can.
At the end of the day if it fails I can backtrack to a more basic enclosure within this building.
This leads onto yet again another question. When I set my concrete base to put the building on do you think I should put drainage holes in the concrete base or will 18" of topsoil/mulch be enough or should I lay lets say 6" of hardcore and only 12" of topsoil/mulch.
You also mentioned bugs, I was thinking worms,slugs,land snails and fresh water snails . What else could I put in there?

 

[Anyfoot]

Unfortunately the pen they were reared in I have demolished that greenhouse. But they were very difficult to find when they were in there. Plants consisted of ficus trees, 8 species of palms, and a bunch of others I don't remember I just got them because they were cool tropical plants. The old greenhouse didn't have the plants in the big pens but a planter box about 3' wide and 60' long the entire length of the old building. I divided it up into 12' sections and put smaller forest dwellers in there. Placed food and let them be until they got bigger then put them into an actual enclosure. Now the new building has the plants inside each enclosure. But they're only a year old on maturity. The old building had 7 years of tropical plant growth so the plants were very large and over growing the ceiling. Which is why I took it down. Besides other reasons too. It was quite hard maintaining the tortoises in it to be honest. I could barely walk in there it was so overgrown. It wasn't practical for captive keeping. It was too wild but without the ecosystem of edibles and the tortoises to fend for themselves. But low ferns and hard stocky plants they really favor that create a canopy to seek shelter under.

Do you have any photos of your old overgrown greenhouse?

 

[tortadise]

I'll look but I doubt it

Do you have any photos of your old overgrown greenhouse?[/QUOTE

 

[Anyfoot]

It's quite wet in there indeed. But keep in mind there's a 16" soil layers drainage system I utilized. Keeping animals this wet with standard dirt/mulch would expedite shell rot and fungus growth. There's a lot more to take into consideration when replicating a true wild environment. It's an nature ecosystem with bugs, soils, plants, oxygen, minerals, air quality blah blah.

Hi Kelly

Does a measuring instrument to measure oxygen levels exist. What sort of oxygen level is classed as normal for redfoots.
Also I noticed in your green house you have ceiling fans, Are these to help with the ambient temp by mixing up the air.
Thanks