So let's discuss bullying for a sec.

[October]

I'm probably going to get some flack for this, but I have TWO sully hatchlings. I don't know what I was thinking when I picked them up, and realized what I did when I put them in their enclosure for the first time. I've been meaning to get a 3rd but lack of extra money and a summer-reliable vehicle has ruined that plan.

Ada and Trudy are roughly 2.5 months old. Ada was originally smaller than Trudy, but now she is much larger. It's not a huge difference, but if it continues it will be. I'm worried there might be some bullying going on.

The thing is, if you were to watch them it would almost seem that the smaller one is the bully-er. She's the first to eat and last to leave, the first to bask, not afraid of bulldozing her sister out of her way. The enclosure is large enough (though I'm working on a big tupperware tub because they're growing so fast), there's always food leftover at the end of the day, there's two hides set up symmetrically with the basking light. I've never seen any kind of nipping. (They sit behind me on a bookshelf behind my computer chair, so I can see them almost constantly. Wait, did I just admit to spending too much time on the computer? ) There doesn't seem to be one preferred sleeping spot, and they rotate almost nightly between the two warmer hides.

Is it possible that she's just a slower grower?

When I first got them, end of May. The one that's currently bigger is Blue Dot.

Can you believe I had these girls for a week before I even noticed Ada had an extra scute? What a ditz.

 

[Yvonne G]

Its always possible that a smaller tortoise might be bullying the larger tortoise. Sometimes its all mental with no outward (to you) signs that its going on.

Try putting food in two different area, with sight blocks in between so they can't see each other while they're eating.

 

[October]

Thank you Yvonne. I'll give that a shot. Wouldn't the tort who might be bullied be the smaller one?

 

[dmmj]

Size (in this case) does not always matter. I notice though that with bigger enclosures bullying is sometime less prevalent.

 

[Angi]

I am confused. Does a size difference mean bullying?

 

[dmmj]

I am confused. Does a size difference mean bullying?

it can but I was referring to that the smaller one can be the bully it is not always the bigger tortoise.

 

[Angi]

Can't they just be different sizes.? Could it have nothing to do with bullying?

 

[TortieLuver]

I have seen it where bullying wasn't an issue and one was smaller than the sibling at about age 2 and then the following year, she caught up nicely in size. What's the reason then...not as much of a piggie as her sibling

 

[TylerStewart]

Can't they just be different sizes.? Could it have nothing to do with bullying?

I think a size difference in this situation probably does have nothing to do with bullying.... I would go so far as to say that it's difficult to raise two siblings (or not siblings) and keep them the same size, even if you tried. I think the amount of "bullying" in babies is pretty minimal. I do think that larger tortoises can have a problem with it, where a tortoise will shy away, but I don't really think it's as big a problem with babies as people say it is. I've never raised a group of babies and had them all stay the same size. I have a big group of star tortoises I'm raising now, and the size differences are amazing, even at 6 months of age, some are twice the weight of others. I don't think the smaller ones are suffering from anything, I think they're just slower growers. They get plenty of food, and eat as much as any other tortoise, then walk away while there's still food to be eaten. In this case and at this time, I'd say it's nothing more than a different growth rate.

 

[Tom]

I have to agree with Tyler AND Yvonne here. Bullying is common, but not guaranteed. I think Tyler is right that its less common with little babies, but the months just tend to fly by and most people (definitely me) become complacent and stop looking out for problems that are likely to come. Can't hurt to take measures to reduce any POTENTIAL bullying. Split scutes usually indicate female in sulcatas and leopards and if Trudy turns out to be female, they might cohabitate with out any problems forever. I thought I had two females and a male for 8 or 9 years until I realized that Bertha was really Bert. The three of them were fine until Bert and Scooter both hit maturity. They always had large enclosures, inside and out, and I think that is one reason why I got away with it.

 

[Tortoise]

In my Red Foot group my youngest smallest one is the most confident. I had wondered if she was too small to live with the other two but soon realised she could look after herself.She has always had a more outgoing personality.

I guess a lot is down to individual personalities and I think these three will remain together.

The male and female cherry started out from the same age and size and the male is almost twice the size now at 5 yrs old.They all get enough food and there doesn't appear to be any bullying - all seem happy and have enough hides to separate if they choose.
Just observations I have made on my little lot.

 

[Neal]

Sometimes its all mental with no outward (to you) signs that its going on.

So I've hear the term "mental bullying" before...but I'm not entirely sure what that means. Maybe I refer it as something different than you do. But do you mind explaining exactly what mental bullying is?

I've had groups of turtles and tortoises since I was 12...box turtles mainly which can be very aggressive, so I know what bullying is in chelonians and signs of bullying...just not sure what would be considered mental bullying as it relates to tortoises.

 

[Tom]

I'd like to share my thoughts on "mental bullying". Animals do not have verbal language to communicate with. They instead use a complex, and often very subtle, method of communication using body language, posture and position. For example: If an old world monkey simply yawns in your direction, he is threatening you and very emphatically warning you to back off, or else... To most humans, its a simple yawn, but to a baboon, its akin to puffing out your chest and profanely shouting at someone to back off or you'll come over there and kick their A**!

In solitary animals like tortoises the simple presence of an another tortoise that is PERCEIVED to be more dominant can be very intimidating. The perceived threat doesn't even have to DO anything. In the wild, if the more submissive feeling tortoise saw what he perceived to be a more dominant animal, he'd leave the area. In the confines of captivity, he can't leave, and this creates long term chronic stress. I've seen many cases where the less dominant animal does not develop (or under develops) secondary sexual characteristics when raised in a group or pair situation. This long term chronic stress can lead to a weakened immune system, loss of appetite, stunted growth and in some cases, eventually death.

Ever see a movie set in a high school cafeteria where someone from the "jock" table merely looks at someone over at the "nerd" table from across the room? The nerds invariably lower their heads, get quiet and get small in an effort NOT to be noticed. The jock did not DO or say anything. He has not touched the nerds. He's not even near the nerds. But with a simple look from across the room he HAS bullied and intimidated them. THIS is mental bullying, by my definition. The nerds cannot wait to get out of that room and away from the perceived threat. When they are alone, in their own backyard or bedroom, the nerds do not feel intimidated and probably function just fine. Put them in the presence of their "bully" and they shut down.

The problem is that most humans are terrible at recognizing subtle cues and body language in animals. I know career professional animal trainers that are TERRIBLE at it. Sad, but true. In our quiet tortoises most of us don't recognize a whole lot of signs. Very subtle things are going on every minute of every day when you have more than one tortoise in an enclosure. Most of the time it works out okay, but often it does not.

Some things are very likely to happen. If you put two adult male Russians or sulcatas together they will almost always fight. If you put two female leopards together, they will likely not fight. There are always exceptions, but that does not change what "normally" happens. Everything in between those two extreme examples is really a crap shoot. It could go any number of ways. I've seen situations that shouldn't work, work great. I've also seen situations that should work great, end in disaster. The bottom line is, whenever two or more animals are put together in a confined space, some sort of social interaction IS going to take place. In the case of naturally solitary animals, like tortoises, this interaction is often subtly detrimental to at least one of the participants.

Having said all of that, October, I think your situation is fine, at least for a while longer, but it would not hurt to try and take measures to reduce to possibility of any bullying. Large enclosures, both indoors and out, with blind corners, lots of hides, multiple feeding stations, and visual barriers spread around, will lessen the likelihood of either of your tortoises feeling threatened or bullied. Eventually you might have to separate them anyway, or maybe not...

 

[October]

Thanks for the reassurance guys. As far as I can tell they're both very very healthy. Hard, heavy, little oinkers. But I just wanted to check.

I am confused. Does a size difference mean bullying?

Well, I know that they're both healthy, eating, parasite free, happy, and that their enclosure was good, so being the nervous hen that I always am, I was worried that there might be this mental bullying that I always read about. And well, since I'm not a tort, I wasn't sure and wanted to make sure I wasn't messing something up. But it looks like maybe Trudy is just watching her figure.

Split scutes usually indicate female in sulcatas and leopards and if Trudy turns out to be female, they might cohabitate with out any problems forever.

They're from the same clutch so I'm hoping that they're both female. Fingers crossed. Male/Female would be okay, but then I'd have to find another female and they're worth their weight in gold.

So I've hear the term "mental bullying" before...but I'm not entirely sure what that means. Maybe I refer it as something different than you do. But do you mind explaining exactly what mental bullying is?

I agree. Not that I doubt anyone, but what exactly is it? Are they calling each other fat with torty body language? Then I know for sure they're both female!

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Great response Tom, I like the way you explained that. Are there any signs one can watch for? If non-physical bullying is happening, will the tort withdraw, huddle in a corner, run? Hopefully there's something to notice before it gets bad enough for weight loss.

 

[dmmj]

I have been known to send nerds running with just a glance.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't know how animals of a species communicate with each other, but when an aggressor wants a more submissive tortoise to get out of the territory, he lets him know. Sometimes its with pushing and shoving, sometimes its not visible to us humans. I don't know if its mental telepathy or if its just a "look." But it does happen.

 

[TylerStewart]

I have been known to send nerds running with just a glance.

I think that was your daisy dukes moreso than your mental bullying.

 

[Tom]

I have been known to send nerds running with just a glance.

Well having met you, I'd run away if you glanced at me the wrong way...

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Great response Tom, I like the way you explained that. Are there any signs one can watch for? If non-physical bullying is happening, will the tort withdraw, huddle in a corner, run? Hopefully there's something to notice before it gets bad enough for weight loss.

Look for lethargy, excessive hiding, lack of appetite, very slow weight gain. Sometimes if the submissive one happens to be out and catches sight of the aggressor, they will bolt for cover. This is what went on for a while with Delores and Scooter after I separated Bert, my other male into his own enclosure due to fighting with Scooter. Poor Delores almost never came out of her hiding spots. I had to put her food inside the night hut since she wouldn't come out to eat it. Mine was not a case of "mental" bullying, but you get the point. In my case, a friend offered me two adult females that were in need of a home and this solved my problem (well, really it solved Deloris' problem) literally immediately. To this day, they all live pretty peacefully together. Scooter is no longer after Delores as much, since the new girls distract him. The other solution would have been to simply separate them. I'm still considering this. I'd have a girl herd and a couple of lone males in separate enclosures.

Sulcatas are usually pretty outgoing and fearless as they get older and bigger. Some of them are just a bit shy, but most of the time if you take a "shy" one out of a pair or group situation and house them alone, they get a lot less shy.

 

[mel262011]

I have a quick question about bullying. I have 2 RFs, my vet thinks one of them might be a male. The one he thinks s a male has been biting my other one. My other one is a little smaller. The supposed male will sometimes ram the smaller one under neath the basking light. What should I do? I have tried 2 basking lights and it did not work.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

In my Red Foot group my youngest smallest one is the most confident. I had wondered if she was too small to live with the other two but soon realised she could look after herself.She has always had a more outgoing personality.

I guess a lot is down to individual personalities and I think these three will remain together.

The male and female cherry started out from the same age and size and the male is almost twice the size now at 5 yrs old.They all get enough food and there doesn't appear to be any bullying - all seem happy and have enough hides to separate if they choose.
Just observations I have made on my little lot.

Exactly...each tortoise has his/her own personality.

I've observed my 4 responding to one another and it never ceases to amaze as to how they interact in their "family".

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I have been known to send nerds running with just a glance.

But, you ARE Captain Awesome, so how could it be any other way!