Soft water or hard? Which is better?

[Moozillion]

I now know my city tap water (and therefore my aquarium water) is VERY soft. So, basically NO dissolved minerals in it which means pH can get disrupted more easily, right?
Is it better for my mud turtle and for potential fish for the water to be soft? Moderately hard? Hard?
All ideas/experience welcome- I’m on a steep learning curve here!

 

[Moozillion]

Oops- I forgot to add that I read that the nitrifying bacteria work better in hard water, and hardly at all in soft water. I'm working on a real problem with high nitrates, so i wonder if that could be part of the issue...

 

[cdmay]

Those are very good questions Mooz. I’d like to know the answers too.

 

[Markw84]

We want moderately hard water in our aquariums/ponds for most fish and for turtles. Most importantly the KH - total alkalinity, not GH - general hardness. However, those are normally related and follow each other. But the total alkalinity (carbonate hardness) is needed to buffer ph. Ph is the level of free hydronium (or many refer to it as hydrogen ions) in the water. The more hydrogen ions - the lower the ph. With out biological filters, the nitrification process actually releases free hydrogen ions as part of that process. So an active biological filter will be constantly lowering your ph. With plants in the water, the photosynthesis process uses CO2 in the water and consumes hydrogen ions in the water - increasing ph. Aeration also degasses CO2 and increases ph. So we need water that will buffer these potential ph swings. Alkalinity is a measure of the acid-neutralizing ability of the water. So it is the alkalinity that provides buffering.

Additionally, and very important is the osmotic effect on the plants or animals that live in the water. Osmosis is the transmission of water through a permeable membrane (cell walls) to naturally try to level concentration in a solution. Depending upon where an organism has evolved, it has developed a certain level of saturation or specific gravity of the water in its cellular structure. If that organism is place in a water environment that is more hightly saturated (higher alkalinity) for example, brackish water - the cells of that organism will take up more water as the osmotic pressure will want to equalize the levels of concentration. The best example with turtles that so many seem to ignore is diamondback terrapins kept in fresh water. They will always start to look much more puffy and swollen from that constant osmotic pressure to compensate for their higher alkalinity of their cellular makeup. The reverse would be true for organisms evolved in a soft water environment but kept in alkaline water. Their cells would be constantly giving up water as the osmotic pressures draw water from the lower alkaline cells into the higher alkaline water. So knowing the natural environment of the animal is important, and to a lesser extent, if it was captive raised - what was the water chemistry it was raised in.

So the answer is not simple. We need to balance the need of buffering ph swings and keeping good biological action going in our filters, with the possible needs of the animal if it has evolved in one of the more specialized alkalinity environments. For most of our turtles, it does mean a moderate to hard water will be the best. Extremely soft water will have a negative effect on not only buffering ph and our water stability, but the osmotic pressure constantly diluting needed minerals our chelonians need for proper growth.

 

[Moozillion]

We want moderately hard water in our aquariums/ponds for most fish and for turtles. Most importantly the KH - total alkalinity, not GH - general hardness. However, those are normally related and follow each other. But the total alkalinity (carbonate hardness) is needed to buffer ph. Ph is the level of free hydronium (or many refer to it as hydrogen ions) in the water. The more hydrogen ions - the lower the ph. With out biological filters, the nitrification process actually releases free hydrogen ions as part of that process. So an active biological filter will be constantly lowering your ph. With plants in the water, the photosynthesis process uses CO2 in the water and consumes hydrogen ions in the water - increasing ph. Aeration also degasses CO2 and increases ph. So we need water that will buffer these potential ph swings. Alkalinity is a measure of the acid-neutralizing ability of the water. So it is the alkalinity that provides buffering.

Additionally, and very important is the osmotic effect on the plants or animals that live in the water. Osmosis is the transmission of water through a permeable membrane (cell walls) to naturally try to level concentration in a solution. Depending upon where an organism has evolved, it has developed a certain level of saturation or specific gravity of the water in its cellular structure. If that organism is place in a water environment that is more hightly saturated (higher alkalinity) for example, brackish water - the cells of that organism will take up more water as the osmotic pressure will want to equalize the levels of concentration. The best example with turtles that so many seem to ignore is diamondback terrapins kept in fresh water. They will always start to look much more puffy and swollen from that constant osmotic pressure to compensate for their higher alkalinity of their cellular makeup. The reverse would be true for organisms evolved in a soft water environment but kept in alkaline water. Their cells would be constantly giving up water as the osmotic pressures draw water from the lower alkaline cells into the higher alkaline water. So knowing the natural environment of the animal is important, and to a lesser extent, if it was captive raised - what was the water chemistry it was raised in.

So the answer is not simple. We need to balance the need of buffering ph swings and keeping good biological action going in our filters, with the possible needs of the animal if it has evolved in one of the more specialized alkalinity environments. For most of our turtles, it does mean a moderate to hard water will be the best. Extremely soft water will have a negative effect on not only buffering ph and our water stability, but the osmotic pressure constantly diluting needed minerals our chelonians need for proper growth.

GREAT info, Mark!!!!!
Thanks BUNCHES!!!!! [emoji2][emoji173]️[emoji2][emoji173]️[emoji2]

 

[AJK Aquaria]

If you're showing high nitrates, you have established beneficial bacteria. The only way to reduce nitrates quickly is to perform large water changes. Be sure to check for nitrite as well, as when present your nitrate reading will not be accurate.

Mark provided some awesome info.

 

[Moozillion]

If you're showing high nitrates, you have established beneficial bacteria. The only way to reduce nitrates quickly is to perform large water changes. Be sure to check for nitrite as well, as when present your nitrate reading will not be accurate.

Mark provided some awesome info.

I check for everything: ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Ammonia and nitrites are both zero, but nitrates are the highest my test kit can measure.☹️

 

[Moozillion]

Since there are NO FISH in the tank, and 50% water changes weekly really isn’t making a whole lot of difference in the nitrates, I’m seriously considering a 100% water change.

 

[Moozillion]

So far I have found 2 methods for increasing water hardness.
1. There are commercial products made to do this such as the photo below.
PROBLEM: I've also read that all of the minerals in this product are in the form of sulfates, and when the beneficial bacteria break them down, you end up with that sulfurous "'rotten egg smell" in and around your aquarium. Anyone know if this is true?



2. Make your own solution. i've seen this same method in several places. The recipe is to put 1 teaspoon of Epsom salts, 1 teaspoon of baking soda and 1 teaspoon of rock salt (or salt substitute) in a gallon of water. You add it slowly, 1 cup at a time. Although no one specifies if "at a time" means one an hour, once a day or once a week, etc.

Any thoughts or experience? @Markw84 @cdmay @Anthony P

Thanks bunches!!!

 

[cdmay]

So far I have found 2 methods for increasing water hardness.
1. There are commercial products made to do this such as the photo below.
PROBLEM: I've also read that all of the minerals in this product are in the form of sulfates, and when the beneficial bacteria break them down, you end up with that sulfurous "'rotten egg smell" in and around your aquarium. Anyone know if this is true?

View attachment 223916

2. Make your own solution. i've seen this same method in several places. The recipe is to put 1 teaspoon of Epsom salts, 1 teaspoon of baking soda and 1 teaspoon of rock salt (or salt substitute) in a gallon of water. You add it slowly, 1 cup at a time. Although no one specifies if "at a time" means one an hour, once a day or once a week, etc.

Any thoughts or experience? @Markw84 @cdmay @Anthony P

Thanks bunches!!!

I dunno Mooz. MarkW sure provided some super good info regarding Ph so I bet he knows.

 

[JoesMum]

Since there are NO FISH in the tank, and 50% water changes weekly really isn’t making a whole lot of difference in the nitrates, I’m seriously considering a 100% water change.

If you persist with 100% water changes you will never get the chemistry right. It takes time for the good bacteria to build up in the pump and for these things to recover.

Our heater failed while we were on holiday in August. Many fish died and it seriously upset the chemistry. It has taken over 3 months to get it back on track and even now the ammonia isn't zero as it should be. It is good enough to reintroduce fish to keep the 4 survivors company now and they are doing well.

The only other suggestion I have is to set up a second tank with a new pump, just water, and some Cycle in it and get that running for at least month before you put Jacques into it. And scrap the old setup completely.

 

[cdmay]

We want moderately hard water in our aquariums/ponds for most fish and for turtles. Most importantly the KH - total alkalinity, not GH - general hardness. However, those are normally related and follow each other. But the total alkalinity (carbonate hardness) is needed to buffer ph. Ph is the level of free hydronium (or many refer to it as hydrogen ions) in the water. The more hydrogen ions - the lower the ph. With out biological filters, the nitrification process actually releases free hydrogen ions as part of that process. So an active biological filter will be constantly lowering your ph. With plants in the water, the photosynthesis process uses CO2 in the water and consumes hydrogen ions in the water - increasing ph. Aeration also degasses CO2 and increases ph. So we need water that will buffer these potential ph swings. Alkalinity is a measure of the acid-neutralizing ability of the water. So it is the alkalinity that provides buffering.

Additionally, and very important is the osmotic effect on the plants or animals that live in the water. Osmosis is the transmission of water through a permeable membrane (cell walls) to naturally try to level concentration in a solution. Depending upon where an organism has evolved, it has developed a certain level of saturation or specific gravity of the water in its cellular structure. If that organism is place in a water environment that is more hightly saturated (higher alkalinity) for example, brackish water - the cells of that organism will take up more water as the osmotic pressure will want to equalize the levels of concentration. The best example with turtles that so many seem to ignore is diamondback terrapins kept in fresh water. They will always start to look much more puffy and swollen from that constant osmotic pressure to compensate for their higher alkalinity of their cellular makeup. The reverse would be true for organisms evolved in a soft water environment but kept in alkaline water. Their cells would be constantly giving up water as the osmotic pressures draw water from the lower alkaline cells into the higher alkaline water. So knowing the natural environment of the animal is important, and to a lesser extent, if it was captive raised - what was the water chemistry it was raised in.

So the answer is not simple. We need to balance the need of buffering ph swings and keeping good biological action going in our filters, with the possible needs of the animal if it has evolved in one of the more specialized alkalinity environments. For most of our turtles, it does mean a moderate to hard water will be the best. Extremely soft water will have a negative effect on not only buffering ph and our water stability, but the osmotic pressure constantly diluting needed minerals our chelonians need for proper growth.

Great info!
I like the mention of diamond back terrapins too...so true.
Question: Have you (or anyone else here) ever seen erosion of a turtles shell due to acidic water? Some years ago I maintained some striped mud turtles that I had captured in the Everglades. When first obtained they had perfect shells. But after a few years their shells—and especially the plastrons, became thinner and thinner. The edges of the anal scutes became paper thin on a couple of them. In addition, their carapaces eroded to the point that when dry felt rough.
The were kept in my usual filtered water with natural wood haul-outs. I never tested the water but assume it was at least slightly acidic due to the driftwood. I’ve never experienced this condition with any other species before, or since. It was only with the striped mud turtles.

 

[Moozillion]

If you persist with 100% water changes you will never get the chemistry right. It takes time for the good bacteria to build up in the pump and for these things to recover.

Our heater failed while we were on holiday in August. Many fish died and it seriously upset the chemistry. It has taken over 3 months to get it back on track and even now the ammonia isn't zero as it should be. It is good enough to reintroduce fish to keep the 4 survivors company now and they are doing well.

The only other suggestion I have is to set up a second tank with a new pump, just water, and some Cycle in it and get that running for at least month before you put Jacques into it. And scrap the old setup completely.

Thank you, Linda.
I feel really awful about letting Jacques’ tank get so out of whack. [emoji20]
I will put on my big girl panties, take a deep breath and work on being patient in order to do things right.

I REALLY DO appreciate your knowledge and experience, especially in understanding that correcting things just takes time.
I WON’T make a 100% change- I will stick with the weekly partial changes.
[emoji51][emoji51][emoji51][emoji51][emoji51]
At least Jacques is ACTING the same as always and doesn’t appear sick.[emoji2]

 

[mark1]

i have to agree in thinking you do just need to let your tank get established , it seems to me establishing plants goes a long way to stabilizing a closed system ...... may not be so , but it appears to me plants that root in the water and grow out of the water do a better job taking up nitrates and ammonium ......... some of those south american river systems have ph's in the 3-4 range , almost devoid of minerals , support hundreds of fish species and many turtle species .. i read the rio negro supports like 1000 different species .

 

[Markw84]

Great info!
I like the mention of diamond back terrapins too...so true.
Question: Have you (or anyone else here) ever seen erosion of a turtles shell due to acidic water? Some years ago I maintained some striped mud turtles that I had captured in the Everglades. When first obtained they had perfect shells. But after a few years their shells—and especially the plastrons, became thinner and thinner. The edges of the anal scutes became paper thin on a couple of them. In addition, their carapaces eroded to the point that when dry felt rough.
The were kept in my usual filtered water with natural wood haul-outs. I never tested the water but assume it was at least slightly acidic due to the driftwood. I’ve never experienced this condition with any other species before, or since. It was only with the striped mud turtles.

Carl:

I have not seen what you are referring to. I can't imagine water alone could have such a dramatic effect. If it was the water, I would tend to think it was very soft (low total alkalinity) not acidic that would be the possible culprit -- leaching calcium due to the extremely low calcium content in the water???? Especially if they were younger, growing turtles??

 

[cdmay]

Carl:

I have not seen what you are referring to. I can't imagine water alone could have such a dramatic effect. If it was the water, I would tend to think it was very soft (low total alkalinity) not acidic that would be the possible culprit -- leaching calcium due to the extremely low calcium content in the water???? Especially if they were younger, growing turtles??

Thanks for the input Mark.
I agree...it seems hard to imagine that acidic water alone would cause the problem. Especially since a number of Amazonian turtle species live in water that is quite acidic.
To answer your question about how old the turtles were, they were adults. At the time I concluded that they must have had some sort of bacterial pathogen from the wild and that in my aquariums it flourished and ran amok.
I released the turtles back where I found them and then literally disposed of the filters, driftwood and anything else associated with those aquariums. I then sterilized the aquariums themselves with bleach followed by vinegar. After thoroughly rinsing them I kept them in direct sunlight for several days.
As I mentioned above, I’ve never experienced this problem before and certainly don’t have it going on now.

 

[cdmay]

Thank you, Linda.
I feel really awful about letting Jacques’ tank get so out of whack. [emoji20]
I will put on my big girl panties, take a deep breath and work on being patient in order to do things right.

I REALLY DO appreciate your knowledge and experience, especially in understanding that correcting things just takes time.
I WON’T make a 100% change- I will stick with the weekly partial changes.
[emoji51][emoji51][emoji51][emoji51][emoji51]
At least Jacques is ACTING the same as always and doesn’t appear sick.[emoji2]

Don’t forget that Jacques is a mud turtle, and mud turtles thrive in some fairly gurky places. So while you want to maintain a nice tank for her, don’t beat yourself up over a temporary flux.

 

[Moozillion]

Don’t forget that Jacques is a mud turtle, and mud turtles thrive in some fairly gurky places. So while you want to maintain a nice tank for her, don’t beat yourself up over a temporary flux.

Thank you very much!!!!!

 

[Moozillion]

Well, today I tested some of the water in a small river near us to see what kind of environment my little muddy was likely to be living in if I hadn't got her. My reasoning was that once I knew what those parameters were in the "natural" environment, then I would shoot for maintaining THOSE parameters in my tank!!!

The river water pH was 6.6, ammonia 0.5 ppm, nitrite and nitrate both ZERO and KH lowest possible for my kit to detect.
The KH got me really confused. I assumed the river water would have all kinds of stuff dissolved in it: there's fish and birds and TONS of plants, fallen branches and leaves etc etc etc. WHY would the KH be basically non-detectible in water of a small, healthy river?

So I started thinking. I often over think things but, oh well.
I wonder if the SAME RIVER could have different parameters at different points in its course?
Would the water test differently if it was from the clear, center, fast flowing area as opposed to the slow, sluggish areas full of dead leaves?
I wonder if different rivers in the same area could have different parameters depending on whether they're faster flowing or contain more run off from fields or sewerage from homes etc.
I give up (today).
My brain is officially gone to mush.
I'm going to take a nap and deal with all this information tomorrow.

 

[Markw84]

Well, today I tested some of the water in a small river near us to see what kind of environment my little muddy was likely to be living in if I hadn't got her. My reasoning was that once I knew what those parameters were in the "natural" environment, then I would shoot for maintaining THOSE parameters in my tank!!!

The river water pH was 6.6, ammonia 0.5 ppm, nitrite and nitrate both ZERO and KH lowest possible for my kit to detect.
The KH got me really confused. I assumed the river water would have all kinds of stuff dissolved in it: there's fish and birds and TONS of plants, fallen branches and leaves etc etc etc. WHY would the KH be basically non-detectible in water of a small, healthy river?

So I started thinking. I often over think things but, oh well.
I wonder if the SAME RIVER could have different parameters at different points in its course?
Would the water test differently if it was from the clear, center, fast flowing area as opposed to the slow, sluggish areas full of dead leaves?
I wonder if different rivers in the same area could have different parameters depending on whether they're faster flowing or contain more run off from fields or sewerage from homes etc.
I give up (today).
My brain is officially gone to mush.
I'm going to take a nap and deal with all this information tomorrow.

River water is very dependent upon what and how long the water has been flowing through. Rainwater is going to be around 0 KH. It is basically distilled water. So river water is usually very low KH as well. As it flows it does pick up minerals, but with full streams and rivers that can be quite low. In drier times with water flowing over limestone, for example, it will pick up a lot of calcium and increase in hardness. But surface water is mostly very low in hardness. Ground water is usually the opposite as it is water that has percolated through soil and rock. So well water will normally be quite high in KH. My water in my previous house was from a community well. It's total alkalinity was over 200. My current home is now on a city water system where the bulk of it comes from reservoirs. It has a total alkalinity of 50-60. Although I think a bit higher would be ideal for what I like, I don't worry about it or try to increase it. I have however recently found information that I will not use that water to rinse eggs in or to moisten the incubation media. For the turtles, though, I don't worry about it.