Some people

Status
Not open for further replies.

richalisoviejo

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
429
Being in the legal profession some of the potential clients can really tick me off. This week I have an appointment with a potential client, he’s been divorced for two years and now wants to terminate his parental rights from his two children, he thought by doing that he can get out of paying child support. Yeah right!

Boy I nearly bit his head off! Told the jerk I’d terminate his parental rights but he will pay support until his children reach the age of majority! Taking support away from a child is unenforceable! Then I had him escorted to the door and of course billed an hourly rate for that ten minute conversation.
 

chadk

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
1,601
If you billed him, wouldn't that make him a client? (not a 'potential' client) :)
 

richalisoviejo

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
429
chadk said:
If you billed him, wouldn't that make him a client? (not a 'potential' client) :)

Hmm, no, a contractual obligation would make him a client. Nice try though.
 

chadk

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
1,601
richalisoviejo said:
chadk said:
If you billed him, wouldn't that make him a client? (not a 'potential' client) :)

Hmm, no, a contractual obligation would make him a client. Nice try though.

Sure, if you say so :cool:

Online dictionaries fail to mention anything about a contract - just the sharing of legal advice and exchange of money for services. As in the overbilling situation you described...

Client:
* a person who seeks the advice of a lawyer
* someone who pays for goods or services

Another source...

cli·ent (klnt)
n.
1. The party for which professional services are rendered, as by an attorney.

And websters:

Main Entry: cli·ent
Pronunciation: \ˈklī-ənt\
Function: noun
: a person who engages the professional advice or services of another <a lawyer's clients>
 

dmmj

The member formerly known as captain awesome
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
19,613
Location (City and/or State)
CA
just because you did not like him did that justify billing him for an hour when you ony spent ten minutes wiith him? and people wonder why lawyers are so well liked( sarcasm)
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,598
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
dmmj said:
just because you did not like him did that justify billing him for an hour when you ony spent ten minutes wiith him? and people wonder why lawyers are so well liked( sarcasm)

I don't think "like" had much to do with it. That's the way of the world. The phone company is the only place I know that will bill minutes. Most folks bill by the hour. And its rounded up.

Yvonne
 

katesgoey

Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
664
Mark: What I'm interested in knowing is since when can support be enforceable if the legal parental relationship no longer exists? Was he behind so he still owed for past support and wanted to get out of future support? Curious to know since I used to work at DA's office enforcing custody orders and am not familiar with caselaw to support continued future support once parental rights were terminated.
 

MissLaw

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Messages
12
dmmj said:
just because you did not like him did that justify billing him for an hour when you ony spent ten minutes wiith him? and people wonder why lawyers are so well liked( sarcasm)
Lawyers get paid for their time. I suspect you do as well. If this man had come into my office looking for a legal loophole to get out of supporting his children I would have had him booted out as well.

katesgoey said:
Mark: What I'm interested in knowing is since when can support be enforceable if the legal parental relationship no longer exists? Was he behind so he still owed for past support and wanted to get out of future support? Curious to know since I used to work at DA's office enforcing custody orders and am not familiar with caselaw to support continued future support once parental rights were terminated.

Sandy, Marciano’s home is right across the street from mine. With the party that went on over there last night until 5:00 AM this morning I doubt he’ll be up for a while.

Some states will allow a parent to terminate their parental rights but they cannot terminate their responsibility unless another man is willing to adopt the children.
 

Candy

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
3,990
Location (City and/or State)
Alhambra, CA
I have to agree with Dmmj, just because you get angry at someones intention (whether right or wrong) that does not mean you're not professional yourself. And I know myself I have fought paying for time not used and won. I would like to know how that is legal to do that? I know you can round it off to 15 minutes, but how do you legally make it one hour? My father always taught me "two wrongs don't make a right". Because you terminated the relationship how do you charge for the extra 50 minutes. If the client would have walked out I could see it, but you said you're the one who escorted him out so how do you now get paid for this? Just because it's legal?????? Doesn't make it right, ethical or moral. And what's legal in open to interpretation and change.
 

chadk

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
1,601
MissLaw said:
Lawyers get paid for their time. I suspect you do as well. If this man had come into my office looking for a legal loophole to get out of supporting his children I would have had him booted out as well.





Rich... I mean MissLaw... For a lawyer, you don't seem to read to well (or comprehend at least...). Nobody had an issue with kicking the dude out. It was regarding the billing practice bragged about....
 

katesgoey

Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
664
MissLaw wrote: "Sandy, Marciano’s home is right across the street from mine. With the party that went on over there last night until 5:00 AM this morning I doubt he’ll be up for a while. "

Golly gee whiz, TMI - I could have waited until he responded...but thanks for the latter portion of your response.
 

richalisoviejo

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
429
katesgoey said:
Mark: What I'm interested in knowing is since when can support be enforceable if the legal parental relationship no longer exists? Was he behind so he still owed for past support and wanted to get out of future support? Curious to know since I used to work at DA's office enforcing custody orders and am not familiar with caselaw to support continued future support once parental rights were terminated.

Sandy he said he was up to date on his payments but wanted to stop them all together and have his parental rights terminated. If parental rights are legally terminated through a parental rights termination proceeding, then ALL rights and duties are terminated FOREVER.

Laws in most states allow for complete termination of rights, however a father cannot relinquish his obligation to pay child support, even if he voluntarily relinquishes his parental rights unless the child is adopted by another person. The State isn’t stupid.

If the child is on public welfare or could possibly ever be on public welfare in the future (which is possible if the mother becomes ill or unemployed), the State will have to foot the bill for supporting the child. As a condition for receiving state aid, the mother must assign her right to collect child support on behalf of the child over to the State. The State simply does not provide loopholes for fathers to "relinquish their parental rights" in order for them to avoid their child support obligations.

A parent is NOT ALLOWED to negotiate away a child's right to child support. That right belongs to the child.

As for the billing? lol. That was addressed so eloquently by Yvonne. Dead beat parents make by blood boil.
 

Candy

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
3,990
Location (City and/or State)
Alhambra, CA
Excuse me, but you didn't answer the question and neither did Yvonne (no offense Yvonne). How can you bill a full hour to someone whom you had kicked out of your office after just 10 minutes? I know what the laws are already for child support you don't need to explain them. I tend to think that if you billed him and he didn't pay you and you took him to small claims court the judge would not not agree with " I was disgusted with him so I threw him out". I think you would need more to go on then that.
 

richalisoviejo

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
429
Candy said:
Excuse me, but you didn't answer the question and neither did Yvonne (no offense Yvonne). How can you bill a full hour to someone whom you had kicked out of your office after just 10 minutes? I know what the laws are already for child support you don't need to explain them.

There is a flat rate I charge for a consulation, weather it be ten minutes or an hour. I was answering Sandy’s comment. I’m happy you already know the child support laws but my reply wasn’t directed at you.
 

katesgoey

Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
664
richalisoviejo said:
katesgoey said:
Mark: What I'm interested in knowing is since when can support be enforceable if the legal parental relationship no longer exists? Was he behind so he still owed for past support and wanted to get out of future support? Curious to know since I used to work at DA's office enforcing custody orders and am not familiar with caselaw to support continued future support once parental rights were terminated.

Sandy he said he was up to date on his payments but wanted to stop them all together and have his parental rights terminated. If parental rights are legally terminated through a parental rights termination proceeding, then ALL rights and duties are terminated FOREVER.

Laws in most states allow for complete termination of rights, however a father cannot relinquish his obligation to pay child support, even if he voluntarily relinquishes his parental rights unless the child is adopted by another person. The State isn’t stupid.

If the child is on public welfare or could possibly ever be on public welfare in the future (which is possible if the mother becomes ill or unemployed), the State will have to foot the bill for supporting the child. As a condition for receiving state aid, the mother must assign her right to collect child support on behalf of the child over to the State. The State simply does not provide loopholes for fathers to "relinquish their parental rights" in order for them to avoid their child support obligations.

A parent is NOT ALLOWED to negotiate away a child's right to child support. That right belongs to the child.

Dead beat parents make by blood boil.

First, I know the state's not stupid (when it comes to this subject anyway). Second, it's been a long while since I snatched kids back from abducting parents and never worked in child support, but I specifically recall 3 cases where the returned child's father' s rights were terminated and the support portion of the order was nullified....that's why I asked. I believe the support statutes changed after my tenure and perhaps that explains it. BTW, I'm not supporting a right for either parent to "negotiate away" the child's right to support.
 

Candy

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
3,990
Location (City and/or State)
Alhambra, CA
richalisoviejo said:
Candy said:
Excuse me, but you didn't answer the question and neither did Yvonne (no offense Yvonne). How can you bill a full hour to someone whom you had kicked out of your office after just 10 minutes? I know what the laws are already for child support you don't need to explain them.

There is a flat rate I charge for a consulation, weather it be ten minutes or an hour. I was answering Sandy’s comment. I’m happy you already know the child support laws but my reply wasn’t directed at you.

All I'm saying is being the professional you should have given him his allowed time for his money that he spent. I know that you got mad at him (and now probably at me), but that doesn't mean that you can use your profession that way. That's why most people feel the way they do about your profession. I fully do understand you having the feelings that you had. I think if you would have written that you told the man "I do not agree with your ethics or you morals so I don't think I'll be taking your case" that I could have agreed with you, but not overcharging, sorry. And I didn't realize that we couldn't post unless it was directed at us specifically. ;)
 

richalisoviejo

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
429
Candy said:
I didn't realize that we couldn't post unless it was directed at us specifically. ;)

Not sure where that came from. I don’t get mad at what anyone post on a message board. But when I see one parents intent on spite and making the other suffer with two small children in the middle I see something terrible wrong with that picture.
 

Candy

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
3,990
Location (City and/or State)
Alhambra, CA
richalisoviejo said:
Candy said:
I didn't realize that we couldn't post unless it was directed at us specifically. ;)

Not sure where that came from. I don’t get mad at what anyone post on a message board. But when I see one parents intent on spite and making the other suffer with two small children in the middle I see something terrible wrong with that picture.

I apologize for the "directed thing". I had read it wrong. I do agree with you about the father. I myself had and have a great ex-husband when it came to supporting his children (financially speaking I mean), but I've also known of some pretty selfish ex-wives that will try to take their ex-husbands for everything they have. It's a hard issue and sometimes it's not pretty. We owe it to our children to behave as adults. Unfortunately we don't always do that. I always felt that if I loved this man enough to give birth to his children then (given the fact he hadn't beaten or abused me or my children) how can I hate him so much now that we're divorced and do I have the right to take his children away from him or make them think badly about him because we didn't work out? Anyway, enough said. Thanks for the debate. :D
 

chadk

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
1,601
richalisoviejo said:
There is a flat rate I charge for a consulation, weather it be ten minutes or an hour. I was answering Sandy’s comment.

So you had an agreement regarding the billing. Sounds like a type of contractual agreement between you and your client . :)

So then if there is a flat rate - such as $300 for up to one hour of legal advice... Or are you saying you charge $300 (or whatever) per hour (always rounded up) and that is part of the contract or billing agreement? Or did you not have an agreement and this schmuck just allows you to bill him without first agreeing on a price?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

New Posts

Top