Stopping those pyramids...and sort of introduction

[GuyC]

Let me see if I can bring him by the clinic next week and make an xray, I'd be curious to see that as well. I'd even figure that if the bone is less pyramided these actual humps will fade a very small amount. However, normally the tissue is only about a mm thick so the bone should follow the humps....

 

[Anyfoot]

Let me see if I can bring him by the clinic next week and make an xray, I'd be curious to see that as well. I'd even figure that if the bone is less pyramided this actual humps will fade. However, normally the tissue is only about a mm thick so the bone should follow the humps....

It would be nice to get one now and lets say another in a year's time.

 

[GuyC]

Here's the x-ray. Seems he swallowed a pebble as well, we'll see if that passes. I'll make another one in a year and then we can see how it develops.

 

[Gillian M]

I have one that's now 110lbs. He started out like Binky. But now that he's as big as he is, it doesn't look 'funny' at all. Here he is giving us the stink eye:

View attachment 183130

Poor guy, is all I can say.

 

[GuyC]

So funny thing, a much belated update on Binky: he's now 440 grams, and doing very well. The top 3 shutes are hte most stubborn when it comes to smoothing out.
I was travelling around Southern Africa in Januari and we found a baby Leopard crossing the road, and I think you can see some pyramiding in this wild one, must have been dry in his first months, it was very wet now.

 

[Markw84]

View attachment 199415 View attachment 199416
The top 3 shutes are hte most stubborn when it comes to smoothing out.

Looking good Guy!

I've found the vertebral scutes the most stubborn as well. I've observed that in all tortoises I have tried to reverse pyramiding in.

My theory is that pyramiding is caused by pressure downwards by the new keratin growth at the new scute seams when dry conditions causes the top of the keratin to dry too early. This would make sense for stubborn vertebrals. The dorsal vertebrae lie totally under the vertebral scutes, and the pleural bones roughly align with those. So once pyramiding has started, the bones themselves can be deflected in that direction. While under the costal scutes, the pleurals are bridging the entire scute passing its margins, so those bones would seem to be more resistant to a compound deflection, and thus easier for it to straighten out once additional pressure is gone in that direction.

 

[Anyfoot]

Looking good Guy!

I've found the vertebral scutes the most stubborn as well. I've observed that in all tortoises I have tried to reverse pyramiding in.

My theory is that pyramiding is caused by pressure downwards by the new keratin growth at the new scute seams when dry conditions causes the top of the keratin to dry too early. This would make sense for stubborn vertebrals. The dorsal vertebrae lie totally under the vertebral scutes, and the pleural bones roughly align with those. So once pyramiding has started, the bones themselves can be deflected in that direction. While under the costal scutes, the pleurals are bridging the entire scute passing its margins, so those bones would seem to be more resistant to a compound deflection, and thus easier for it to straighten out once additional pressure is gone in that direction.

I totally agree with this theory. It's basically a ratio of humidity versus growth.

Mark I would appreciate your thoughts on protein too.
We hear often some say it's lack of humidity that causes pyramiding, there are still long time carers/breeders who still say it's diet. There is something that is sticking in my mind and won't go away, Yvonne and Tom don't understand how they grow smooth torts in Arizona (think it was Arizona anyway)where it's dry. I'm starting to think it can be both humidity/hydration and/or diet (protein intake)
Keratin is protein based. If I fed my tortoise rich foods that did not contain protein at all(yes there would be other health issues but let's forget about that for now) my tortoise would grow but not be capable of growing new keratin to fill in the newest crevices from the scute plates moving apart.
This would also give same results as dry keratin not being able to fill in the crevices.
If this theory has some merit, it means you can keep a tort as hydrated/humid as you want but with no protein it can pyramid. Don't forget there is protein in animal and foliage.
If both humidity/hydration and protein (diet) all take part in the getting a perfect wild look this would explain why when we see an adult wild caught tort in captivity the new growth is lower down, it's as though the new keratin is not as thick. I'm thinking it's because the diet has changed from when it was caught.(less protein). This could also explain why even within the same clutch we see slightly different degrees of pyramiding (from none to very very mild pyramiding). Because some hatchlings didn't get the correct ratio of protein to growth rate even though they were kept humid/hydrated.
Next clutch I get are getting fed only one type of food per day, they will get the mixed diet over a week or two. This way each tort will have its fill on exactly the same foods.

 

[Markw84]

This is Guy's thread, @Anyfoot We need to take this somewhere else...

 

[Anyfoot]

This is Guy's thread, @Anyfoot We need to take this somewhere else...

Agreed. Apologies @GuyC

 

[GuyC]

No worries, I find this very interesting, squat the thread all you want

 

[Markw84]

I totally agree with this theory. It's basically a ratio of humidity versus growth.

Mark I would appreciate your thoughts on protein too.
We hear often some say it's lack of humidity that causes pyramiding, there are still long time carers/breeders who still say it's diet. There is something that is sticking in my mind and won't go away, Yvonne and Tom don't understand how they grow smooth torts in Arizona (think it was Arizona anyway)where it's dry. I'm starting to think it can be both humidity/hydration and/or diet (protein intake)
Keratin is protein based. If I fed my tortoise rich foods that did not contain protein at all(yes there would be other health issues but let's forget about that for now) my tortoise would grow but not be capable of growing new keratin to fill in the newest crevices from the scute plates moving apart.
This would also give same results as dry keratin not being able to fill in the crevices.
If this theory has some merit, it means you can keep a tort as hydrated/humid as you want but with no protein it can pyramid. Don't forget there is protein in animal and foliage.
If both humidity/hydration and protein (diet) all take part in the getting a perfect wild look this would explain why when we see an adult wild caught tort in captivity the new growth is lower down, it's as though the new keratin is not as thick. I'm thinking it's because the diet has changed from when it was caught.(less protein). This could also explain why even within the same clutch we see slightly different degrees of pyramiding (from none to very very mild pyramiding). Because some hatchlings didn't get the correct ratio of protein to growth rate even though they were kept humid/hydrated.
Next clutch I get are getting fed only one type of food per day, they will get the mixed diet over a week or two. This way each tort will have its fill on exactly the same foods.

OK, then. Thank you, @GuyC Started as a reply to your observation that the vertebral scutes were the hardest to reverse the pyramiding.

@Anyfoot I do not believe protein has anything at all to do with pyramiding. You would have to have almost no protein and stop any tissue growth to stop keratin production as well. That was so commonly proposed as a cause, many of us tried everything to adjust protein to stop pyramiding years ago. I know I raised sulcatas in comparison groups back in the late 90's with both slow vs fast growing and varying diets from higher to as little protein as I could provide = to no effect on pyramiding. A very poor diet is still enough for normal keratin growth. I do believe genetics plays a role in variations, though Just as many people have thicker vs. very thin fingernails, tortoises could equally have variations in the thickness of the scutes. And just like supplements and additional protein will not help us grow thicker, better fingernails - diet does not seem to effect the way genetics programs keratin production.

 

[Anyfoot]

OK, then. Thank you, @GuyC Started as a reply to your observation that the vertebral scutes were the hardest to reverse the pyramiding.

@Anyfoot I do not believe protein has anything at all to do with pyramiding. You would have to have almost no protein and stop any tissue growth to stop keratin production as well. That was so commonly proposed as a cause, many of us tried everything to adjust protein to stop pyramiding years ago. I know I raised sulcatas in comparison groups back in the late 90's with both slow vs fast growing and varying diets from higher to as little protein as I could provide = to no effect on pyramiding. A very poor diet is still enough for normal keratin growth. I do believe genetics plays a role in variations, though Just as many people have thicker vs. very thin fingernails, tortoises could equally have variations in the thickness of the scutes. And just like supplements and additional protein will not help us grow thicker, better fingernails - diet does not seem to effect the way genetics programs keratin production.

So you think regardless of diet the protein levels naturally balance with growth rate because the protein is used for growth as well as for the keratin.

 

[GuyC]

Still going strong and growing strong. Out in the yard stomping around. Top shutes remain an issue.

 

[Markw84]

Still going strong and growing strong. Out in the yard stomping around. Top shutes remain an issue. View attachment 208569

In my continuing studies on pyramiding, I am becoming more convince the vertebral scutes are far more resistant to changing the initial pyramiding because of the way the bone in the shell of a tortoise stages ossification. The fontanels, especially with the pleurals, in young sulcatas stay open for up to the first 7 years of growth. The ossification of the vertebrals is complete quite early - in a year or two. With the bone filled in and much more rigid, the growth pattern started would be much harder to change. While in the lower portion of the pleurals, the bone will be barely present under almost 1/2 the costal scute, even in a tortoise that has grown to 6" or more. The costal scute will take on the new shape easily as no real bone deformation has occurred yet.

 

[GuyC]

Souds logical, it seems to slowly get better, I'll post pictures soon.

 

[Alaskamike]

Great thread.
Here is one I adopted at 2.3 lbs. kept wrong (bottom photo )

Here he is 2 yrs later at 17 lbs (top )

I think the pyramiding has been mitigated greatly. But his poor start will probably always be visible.

 

[Damien Szkatulski]

\

I totally agree with this theory. It's basically a ratio of humidity versus growth.

Mark I would appreciate your thoughts on protein too.
We hear often some say it's lack of humidity that causes pyramiding, there are still long time carers/breeders who still say it's diet. There is something that is sticking in my mind and won't go away, Yvonne and Tom don't understand how they grow smooth torts in Arizona (think it was Arizona anyway)where it's dry. I'm starting to think it can be both humidity/hydration and/or diet (protein intake)
Keratin is protein based. If I fed my tortoise rich foods that did not contain protein at all(yes there would be other health issues but let's forget about that for now) my tortoise would grow but not be capable of growing new keratin to fill in the newest crevices from the scute plates moving apart.
This would also give same results as dry keratin not being able to fill in the crevices.
If this theory has some merit, it means you can keep a tort as hydrated/humid as you want but with no protein it can pyramid. Don't forget there is protein in animal and foliage.
If both humidity/hydration and protein (diet) all take part in the getting a perfect wild look this would explain why when we see an adult wild caught tort in captivity the new growth is lower down, it's as though the new keratin is not as thick. I'm thinking it's because the diet has changed from when it was caught.(less protein). This could also explain why even within the same clutch we see slightly different degrees of pyramiding (from none to very very mild pyramiding). Because some hatchlings didn't get the correct ratio of protein to growth rate even though they were kept humid/hydrated.
Next clutch I get are getting fed only one type of food per day, they will get the mixed diet over a week or two. This way each tort will have its fill on exactly the same foods.

so essentially humidity can help reduce the effects of the protein, but without protein that would'nt be a problem? That's what I picked up anyways.
correct me if im wrong

 

[Tom]

\

so essentially humidity can help reduce the effects of the protein, but without protein that would'nt be a problem? That's what I picked up anyways.
correct me if im wrong

No. Protein has to do with growth rate, but it has little to do with pyramiding. If you feed a "high" protein diet in a dry enclosure, you will get fast, pyramided growth. Feed the same "high" protein diet in a humid enclosure with good hydration and shell spraying and the tortoise will grow smooth. Low protein in a dry environment produce slow growth with pyramiding. Low protein in a humid environment with good hydration and shell spraying will produce a slower growing smooth tortoise.

Pyramiding is not caused by diet. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry.

 

[Anyfoot]

\

so essentially humidity can help reduce the effects of the protein, but without protein that would'nt be a problem? That's what I picked up anyways.
correct me if im wrong

You need to read further on in this thread. Markw84 put my post to bed. No matter what we feed it's all proportional to all growing part of a tortoise. So keratin and bone growth are on par with a healthy tortoise. What we need to do is balance growth rate to carapace and tortoise hydration to get a smooth tortoise.
The worst case scenario is to grow a tortoise very fast in a very dry environment.

 

[GuyC]

long overdue update. Binky is now over 1 kg (around 2 pounds), at almost 4 years. That's very slow compared to other sulcata's I've seen here, but maybe that's because (s)he gets a fibrous low protein food. Pyramiding is completely gone in the side scutes, but the top ones are stubborn still (seems impossible to flatten out due to the way they are angled)...