Strange shell growth

[CameronJD]

My leopard tortoise is almost 1.5 years old. She was rather sickly when I received her and it took a solid six months of attention to get her healthy. During that extended bout of sickness, her growth was very sporadic.

I've noticed her shell has some strange growth despite my best efforts to control diet, lighting, and humidity. It's full of dents and weird buckling, with signs of pyramiding despite parameters being correct.

During summer she eats foraged weeds. In winter, a variety of lettuces, opuntia cactus, bok choy leaves, dandelion, collard greens, occasional mazuri, sunflower microgreens, kale. I try and supplement with Reptivite with D3 twice weekly but she hates it.

Lighting is T5 Arcadia 12% tube with a 100 watt halogen and CHEs. Humidity is realistically around 70%. I aim for 80%.

Any thoughts?

 

[Paula Hu]

hmm it looks like its pyramiding. Don't trust me I'm a noob at tortoises.
according to tom's care sheet, the humidity needs to be at lease 80%, so try raising the humidity.

 

[biochemnerd808]

There is indeed a small amount of pyramiding. In comparison to what we used to see 10 years ago though, your tortoise looks really great! I think once he is fully grown, this will barely even be visible.

Are you keeping him according to Tom's care sheet, linked above?

Even healthy baby tortoises start and stop growth. I wouldn't be too concerned.

 

[CameronJD]

There is indeed a small amount of pyramiding. In comparison to what we used to see 10 years ago though, your tortoise looks really great! I think once he is fully grown, this will barely even be visible.

Are you keeping him according to Tom's care sheet, linked above?

Even healthy baby tortoises start and stop growth. I wouldn't be too concerned.

Yeah, I've been following very closely with some minor tweaks. I initially had her in a closed chamber, but I found that for whatever reason, her eyes would swell in this setup. I introduced some ventilation and the humidity dropped accordingly, but the swelling stopped. If I keep the humidity at the recommended 80%, her eyes swell. If I lower it slightly to around 70%, her eyes are fine but she starts to pyramid.

I received her sick from the breeder, and it took a solid 6 months to get her healthy. Multiple rounds of antibiotics to clear up a stubborn RI. This has obviously affected her growth and if you look closely at the photos, you can see that her shell has odd notches and buckling in the keratin. There is some slight pyramiding that I'm working on resolving, but I'm concerned that the weird existing growth is indicative of metabolic issues.

Any thoughts?

 

[Mrs.Jennifer]

That sounds odd...I've never heard of eyes swelling from humidity. I wonder if @Tom has any wisdom...

 

[TechnoCheese]

It looks like it could be from lighting that is too low down or too concentrated in one spot. Is the halogen a “spot” bulb or a flood? How high is your heating above the substrate?

 

[CameronJD]

It looks like it could be from lighting that is too low down or too concentrated in one spot. Is the halogen a “spot” bulb or a flood? How high is your heating above the substrate?

I experimented with a lot of different lighting. On the recommendation of the breeder, I started with a 125 watt MVB and eventually switched it out for a 100 watt bulb before abandoning MVBs altogether. They were definitely on the lower side, about 10 inches from shell height. I kept it at a height that yielded 100-110 F beneath it, again at the recommendation of the breeder.

The halogen I use now is an Arcadia 100 watt halogen basking bulb. I don't believe it's a flood light. It's about 12 inches above the substrate, yielding 100 degrees underneath.

So you think excessive heat led to the keratin bunching and buckling?

 

[biochemnerd808]

I experimented with a lot of different lighting. On the recommendation of the breeder, I started with a 125 watt MVB and eventually switched it out for a 100 watt bulb before abandoning MVBs altogether. They were definitely on the lower side, about 10 inches from shell height. I kept it at a height that yielded 100-110 F beneath it, again at the recommendation of the breeder.

The halogen I use now is an Arcadia 100 watt halogen basking bulb. I don't believe it's a flood light. It's about 12 inches above the substrate, yielding 100 degrees underneath.

So you think excessive heat led to the keratin bunching and buckling?

I wonder if a shell height (rather than on substrate height) the temps might be too hot? Always measure at shell height, checking at least 2 hrs after the lights first turn on. It can take a little while for the bulb to reach full strength.

Also, do you spray his shell with warm water? Even in a closed chamber with good humidity, misting the top of the shell with warn water a few times a day will contribute to smoother growth.

 

[CameronJD]

I wonder if a shell height (rather than on substrate height) the temps might be too hot? Always measure at shell height, checking at least 2 hrs after the lights first turn on. It can take a little while for the bulb to reach full strength.

Also, do you spray his shell with warm water? Even in a closed chamber with good humidity, misting the top of the shell with warn water a few times a day will contribute to smoother growth.

You may be right about the need to raise the heat sources a bit. It's a delicate balance between maintaining surface temps and ambient temps. I use a Herpstat to keep the temps as consistent as possible.

I haven't been in the habit of wetting her shell, but I'll start doing that and see if it helps. She gets at least a 10 minute soak everyday. For the first year of her life, she got two soaks--one in the morning and another in the evening.

I really do think her prolonged illness is the primary culprit in the odd shell growth. I've looked at dozens of pictures of both wild and captive bred leopard yearlings and have yet to see one with as many dents and dings in their shell. It makes me sad

 

[biochemnerd808]

Can you add insulation to the outside of the enclosure? I've used that silver bubble wrap stuff, it does make a difference to add that. This would allow you to use a lower bulb wattage, or to move the bulb up a little.

Shell spraying makes a huge difference, in my opinion. Especially since yours doesn't have quite as high humidity.

I really don't see alarming dents in the growth. You have a beautiful tortoise. Good job treating it through its illness.

 

[Tom]

You may be right about the need to raise the heat sources a bit. It's a delicate balance between maintaining surface temps and ambient temps. I use a Herpstat to keep the temps as consistent as possible.

I haven't been in the habit of wetting her shell, but I'll start doing that and see if it helps. She gets at least a 10 minute soak everyday. For the first year of her life, she got two soaks--one in the morning and another in the evening.

I really do think her prolonged illness is the primary culprit in the odd shell growth. I've looked at dozens of pictures of both wild and captive bred leopard yearlings and have yet to see one with as many dents and dings in their shell. It makes me sad

First and foremost, the growth looks perfectly fine. Minor pyramiding frequently happens in leopards even in ideal conditions.

Your bulb is the problem. MVBs and halogens both cause pyramiding and growth anomalies. Your excellent care routine and attention to detail has minimized, but not 100% eliminated the damage. Regular incandescent flood bulbs are the best way to go, but even those can cause damage if not used carefully and correctly.

Some tips:
1. To set bulb height and temperature correctly, prop a digital thermometer up on a small piece of wood or something to get it to the same height as the top of the carapace. Place this thermometer directly under the basking bulb and let it cook for an hour or more. Adjust the height of your bulb until it is roughly 95-100. 110 at ground level is probably much hotter at the top of your torts carapace.
2. Most breeders do it all wrong, and then tell their people how to do it all wrong. Anyone recommending MVBs over a young growing tortoise has no idea what they are talking about and probably has all sorts of other wrong ideas too.
3. Even with the best bulbs we have to offer, artificial light bulbs still dry out and desiccate the carapace to some degree. We combat this with soaks, humidity, and carapace spraying with non-mineralized water like RO, distilled or collected rainwater. Heat lamps are a necessary evil. Some species do fine with no heat lamp and warm overall temps. Leopards need the heat lamp. They don't do as well without it. I've tried. We can minimize the damage caused by basking by discouraging basking. Why do they bask? They bask to warm up. Warmer ambient temps will make them bask less often and for shorter durations, which minimizes any carapace damage from the lamps. I keep the enclosure 80 over night, and then let ambient creep up to the high 80s or low 90s during the heat of the day.

I don't see the care sheet in this thread, so here it is again for reference, if needed:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions welcome.

 

[CameronJD]

First and foremost, the growth looks perfectly fine. Minor pyramiding frequently happens in leopards even in ideal conditions.

Your bulb is the problem. MVBs and halogens both cause pyramiding and growth anomalies. Your excellent care routine and attention to detail has minimized, but not 100% eliminated the damage. Regular incandescent flood bulbs are the best way to go, but even those can cause damage if not used carefully and correctly.

Some tips:
1. To set bulb height and temperature correctly, prop a digital thermometer up on a small piece of wood or something to get it to the same height as the top of the carapace. Place this thermometer directly under the basking bulb and let it cook for an hour or more. Adjust the height of your bulb until it is roughly 95-100. 110 at ground level is probably much hotter at the top of your torts carapace.
2. Most breeders do it all wrong, and then tell their people how to do it all wrong. Anyone recommending MVBs over a young growing tortoise has no idea what they are talking about and probably has all sorts of other wrong ideas too.
3. Even with the best bulbs we have to offer, artificial light bulbs still dry out and desiccate the carapace to some degree. We combat this with soaks, humidity, and carapace spraying with non-mineralized water like RO, distilled or collected rainwater. Heat lamps are a necessary evil. Some species do fine with no heat lamp and warm overall temps. Leopards need the heat lamp. They don't do as well without it. I've tried. We can minimize the damage caused by basking by discouraging basking. Why do they bask? They bask to warm up. Warmer ambient temps will make them bask less often and for shorter durations, which minimizes any carapace damage from the lamps. I keep the enclosure 80 over night, and then let ambient creep up to the high 80s or low 90s during the heat of the day.

I don't see the care sheet in this thread, so here it is again for reference, if needed:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions welcome.

Can you give me an example of the type of incandescent flood light you recommend?

For the time being, I've raised the halogen and CHEs accordingly. I've also reduced the ventilation ever so slightly in her latest setup to raise the humidity. Hopefully these changes will improve future shell growth. In addition to her shell issues, her eyes are incredibly sensitive to a closed chamber environment. The only way I was able to mitigate this was to provide more or less continuous air flow and add a humidifier. Only issue is the 24/7 humidifier swamped out the rest of the house. The struggle is real!

And yeah, the MVBs were a disaster. I cycled through a bunch of different brands and wattages back when I thought her eye issues were related to her lighting (they may have been part of the issue admittedly). It was only when I caved and bought a solarmeter that I discovered how ridiculously concentrated the UV output actually is with MVBs. I can now appreciate how essential that tool is. Even my T5 needs to be much higher than I would have guessed to achieve an optimal output.

 

[Tom]

Can you give me an example of the type of incandescent flood light you recommend?

For the time being, I've raised the halogen and CHEs accordingly. I've also reduced the ventilation ever so slightly in her latest setup to raise the humidity. Hopefully these changes will improve future shell growth. In addition to her shell issues, her eyes are incredibly sensitive to a closed chamber environment. The only way I was able to mitigate this was to provide more or less continuous air flow and add a humidifier. Only issue is the 24/7 humidifier swamped out the rest of the house. The struggle is real!

And yeah, the MVBs were a disaster. I cycled through a bunch of different brands and wattages back when I thought her eye issues were related to her lighting (they may have been part of the issue admittedly). It was only when I caved and bought a solarmeter that I discovered how ridiculously concentrated the UV output actually is with MVBs. I can now appreciate how essential that tool is. Even my T5 needs to be much higher than I would have guessed to achieve an optimal output.

You've gained much wisdom through trial and error. Some people can't seem to learn these things even when I beat them over the head with it, while you learned it all on your own. That is admirable. We have a certain moderator {cough cough... Barb...} That likes to come behind the Solarmeter recommendation and proclaim they are too expensive. I love Barb and she is a great human, but I don't agree with her stance on the Solarmeter issue. As you've learned, it is an essential tool for anyone using any kind of indoor UV. I think the cost of NOT having one is too expensive.

I've raised 100s of leopards in closed chambers. Lots of other species too. I don't think the closed chamber has anything to do with the eye issue. I think its coincidental. It was most likely temperatures, the lights, or even the substrate. Are/were you using soil? Or sand?

Humidifiers should not be used with tortoises, especially not leopards, and especially not one fighting an RI. The way to keep humidity up is to reduce ventilation. I completely understand what you said previously and why you did it this way, but as I said, I think the eye problem is from something else. 100% humidity and hardly any air movement simply does not cause eye irritation.

The bulbs are just regular flood bulbs form the hardware store:

Philips 65-Watt Incandescent BR30 Flood Light Bulb Soft White (2700K) (12-Pack) 248872 - The Home Depot

The Philips 65-Watt Incandescent Flood Light Bulb (12-Pack) is designed to fit a variety of home or business lighting needs. These 12 flood lights shine for up to 2000 hours and are dimmable, allowing

www.homedepot.com

 

[CameronJD]

You've gained much wisdom through trial and error. Some people can't seem to learn these things even when I beat them over the head with it, while you learned it all on your own. That is admirable. We have a certain moderator {cough cough... Barb...} That likes to come behind the Solarmeter recommendation and proclaim they are too expensive. I love Barb and she is a great human, but I don't agree with her stance on the Solarmeter issue. As you've learned, it is an essential tool for anyone using any kind of indoor UV. I think the cost of NOT having one is too expensive.

I've raised 100s of leopards in closed chambers. Lots of other species too. I don't think the closed chamber has anything to do with the eye issue. I think its coincidental. It was most likely temperatures, the lights, or even the substrate. Are/were you using soil? Or sand?

Humidifiers should not be used with tortoises, especially not leopards, and especially not one fighting an RI. The way to keep humidity up is to reduce ventilation. I completely understand what you said previously and why you did it this way, but as I said, I think the eye problem is from something else. 100% humidity and hardly any air movement simply does not cause eye irritation.

The bulbs are just regular flood bulbs form the hardware store:

Philips 65-Watt Incandescent BR30 Flood Light Bulb Soft White (2700K) (12-Pack) 248872 - The Home Depot

The Philips 65-Watt Incandescent Flood Light Bulb (12-Pack) is designed to fit a variety of home or business lighting needs. These 12 flood lights shine for up to 2000 hours and are dimmable, allowing

www.homedepot.com

I know it flies in the face of all the conventional wisdom on husbandry, but for whatever reason, my tortoise's eyes seem to swell whenever she's in a closed chamber. I reduced the ventilation over the last few days to encourage higher humidity and already her eyelids are starting to get that puffy look. She hasn't had this issue for months now. I've attached some photos. I too assumed the lights were to blame, so I tried half a dozen different bulbs and setups without improvement. It was only when I allowed continuous air exchange that it cleared up. Have you ever experienced something like this?

 

[Tom]

I know it flies in the face of all the conventional wisdom on husbandry, but for whatever reason, my tortoise's eyes seem to swell whenever she's in a closed chamber. I reduced the ventilation over the last few days to encourage higher humidity and already her eyelids are starting to get that puffy look. She hasn't had this issue for months now. I've attached some photos. I too assumed the lights were to blame, so I tried half a dozen different bulbs and setups without improvement. It was only when I allowed continuous air exchange that it cleared up. Have you ever experienced something like this?

Never. What substrate are you using and is it damp?

 

[CameronJD]

Never. What substrate are you using and is it damp?

She's on coarse coco coir, about 2 inches deep. I thought it might be the substrate irritating her eyes, so I experimented with different brands of coir, in addition to cypress mulch and even just paper towel. Again, the thing that has made the most significant difference is ventilation.

The surface is dry, but it's moist underneath. I often water it like a plant to add moisture to the enclosure.

I also wonder if she's got some internal issues stemming from her illness. As I mentioned previously, she was quite sick when I received her and it took a great concerted effort to keep her alive. She seems to be more fragile than is typical.

 

[Tom]

She's on coarse coco coir, about 2 inches deep. I thought it might be the substrate irritating her eyes, so I experimented with different brands of coir, in addition to cypress mulch and even just paper towel. Again, the thing that has made the most significant difference is ventilation.

The surface is dry, but it's moist underneath. I often water it like a plant to add moisture to the enclosure.

I also wonder if she's got some internal issues stemming from her illness. As I mentioned previously, she was quite sick when I received her and it took a great concerted effort to keep her alive. She seems to be more fragile than is typical.

Doesn't seem like the substrate would be doing it.

It is fortunate that you are so observant and tuned in to what works and what doesn't for your tortoise. If more ventilation works, then that's what you'll have to do with this one. This is unusual, but you've tried to eliminate all the other variables, and it sure seems like you've found your issue. The fact that I don't have this issue does not matter in your case.