Then and Now, Daisy

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Tom

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I got Daisy at three months old in January of 2008. She was kept on grass hay pellets and had a flourescent UV bulb over her for 12 hours a day. Her siblings were all similarly pyramided. This is what she looked like then:
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This is what she looks like now at three years old. For the first few months I gradually and carefully made her room and enclosure more and more humid and wet. By about October of 2008 her enclosure could be described as "swampy". Seriously, I think a RES would do quite well in there. It is still swampy to this day. At first, I didn't think the pyramiding was even slowing down, but now, in the last six months or so, I clearly has flattened out. Here is what she looks like now:
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She grew very slowly right up until the last few months where she's now having a growth spurt. I started feeding her occasional Mazuri, but that's the only thing that has changed. I'm reluctant to claim that the new growth spurt is the result of Mazuri, but it sure seems that way.

I'm not really trying to make a point with this post, just showing everyone where Daisy started and what "swampy" has done for her in my situation. Last pic is her next to my 4 month old for a size comparison. For the sulcata newbies, my four month olds have been raised "right" from hatching and are very big for their age, while Daisy was raised all "wrong" and is very small for her age.
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Az tortoise compound

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Looks like "swampy" and Crisco!....seriously though, The new growth looks good and so does that 4 month old!
 

Tom

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Tortoise pics always just look better when they are wet. Crisco... that was funny.
 

Missy

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So when a tort starts pyramiding it can still continue for some time even after the care is corrected?? How much Mazuri and how often do you feed Daisy? I have started my torts on Mazuri but still trying to guess how much to give them.
 

Tom

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From my experience with this one tort and others I have observed, yes, that is correct.

I feed her Mazuri mixed with greens, twice a week. She loves it. She can smell it while i'm soaking and mixing it and she goes nuts for it.


Missy said:
So when a tort starts pyramiding it can still continue for some time even after the care is corrected?? How much Mazuri and how often do you feed Daisy? I have started my torts on Mazuri but still trying to guess how much to give them.
 

ChiKat

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Her new growth looks great! I'm guessing the pyramiding will barely be noticeable when she is full grown. She is very pretty :)
I wonder if there is a critical time period that determines the pattern of growth. For example, if a tortoise is kept in a humid environment that first week or month, will they most likely grow smoothly?
 

Tom

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ChiKat said:
Her new growth looks great! I'm guessing the pyramiding will barely be noticeable when she is full grown. She is very pretty :)
I wonder if there is a critical time period that determines the pattern of growth. For example, if a tortoise is kept in a humid environment that first week or month, will they most likely grow smoothly?

I don't know what it will look like, but I'm guessing it will be smooth with little buttons.

To answer your question, YES! All evidence I've seen suggests that if you can growth them smooth to somewhere between 4-8", they will continue to grow smooth regardless of how dry it gets. We used to get wild caught imports back in the early nineties and they all had to be over 4". They would come in totally smooth and go into the same enclosure and conditions as the pyramided captive raised ones. The smooth wild caughts would stay smooth and the pyramided captive raised ones would continue growing bumpy. I believe this "pattern" for growth is established in the first few weeks. Daisy was only 12 weeks old when I got her. Just by looking at her we can tell that it happens sometime before 12 weeks. I've seen them starting to pyramid at two weeks. What I wonder is exactly what size do you not have to worry about it any more? Most breeders and experienced keepers tell me around 6". So that first year is critical, but he first week or two can literally be disastrous if they are allowed to dry out too much. How much is too much? I don't know... yet.
 

DonaTello's-Mom

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Thanks for posting these pictures Tom. You've made a believer out of me for sure. It's so interesting
to actually SEE the difference in her new shell growth, just like my sully DonaTello's shell. Wow... and
I followed your advice.....and got the same great results as you! What would we do without ya here on TFO??
 

murdocjunior

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My stuie is like that too i bought him just like yours wht can we do too make the pyrimd go away? Or is it guna take a while?
 

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A+ Tom.

Humidity is an amazing husbandry tool, you can use it too offset a higher protein diet and speed growth. You can use it to smooth out a youngster with pyramided growth. It really is one of the most important keys to keeping a healthy and happy sulcata.
 

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murdocjunior said:
Speed growth? How do u do that? Is it healthy for the tort?

It's not healthy. Certain foods, mazuri for example, have higher protein concentrations than a wild animal would encounter naturally on a daily basis. That protein will cause the animal to grow faster because it is metabolized quicker than grass or hay.

Animals that are fed natural foods like grass and hay grow slower because it takes more energy to break down and get the nutrients out in the torts gut.

The link between humidity and diet that you can feed a higher protein diet but in order to get the smooth growth you need to raise the humidity to compensate for faster growth.
 

Tom

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murdocjunior said:
My stuie is like that too i bought him just like yours wht can we do too make the pyrimd go away? Or is it guna take a while?

Here is what I do with Daisy and my hatchlings. You can do some or all of this. I did these things gradually over time and watched for any signs of trouble. I never saw any.

Disclaimer: YOU MUST KEEP YOUR TEMPS NO LOWER THAN 75-80, 24/7 IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THESE THINGS. Cooler temps with this much moisture COULD induce a respiratory infection or other health problems.

1. Humidify the whole room. Mine stays 50-60%.
2. Use a damp substrate and keep it wet. Dump in water as needed to keep it damp all the time. I use coco coir.
3. Spray the tortoise and the cage at least 3-4 times a day. As it evaporates, it will keep things more humid.
4. Cover most of the top. I just leave enough open to hang my heat lamp. This keeps the humidity inside the enclosure, at tortoise level, 80-90%.
5. Use a plastic shoe box and make a humid hide. Here's what I mean:
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Humid-Hide-Boxes-II
6. Do a shallow warm water soak at least once a day. I usually do them in the morning, then again after sunning sessions and a third time in the evening, time permitting.

I feed a little Mazuri mixed with greens about twice a week. I believe it to be very beneficial in many ways. I limit sunning sessions to an hour or two a day for babies, due to the extremely dry air where I live.

If you do all this your new growth will come out as smooth as nature will allow it. If your tort is already pyramiding these measures will GRADUALLY make it smoother over time. Other than these things, I don't know what more can be done.
 
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