Thermal Imaging Study linked with Extra Virgin Coconut Oil

glitch4200

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Hi everyone.
I want this separate from my "coconut oil" thread. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/103782/

So if this is the wrong section for this I apologize. In the next week I am renting a nice thermo imaging camera from home Depot. It's not that expensive I found out to rent.

http://www.flir.com/homedepot/

I want to take some thermal images on both my tortoises Nibbles and Pebbles. I want to know the effects of using Extra Virgin coconut oil on my tortoise which has been as often as 2x-3x a week for the last 3.5 months for Nibbles and month and half for Pebbles. I am using a thermal imaging camera which I'll post when I get it. It looks soo cool.

My goal is to see the effects of my coconut oil application have had on the thermoregulation of my tortoises and if it at all affects the way a lamp heats my tortoises using widely bought bulbs like Mercury Vapor, 100w incedesent, and UV tube style bulb. Which is what I have lol.

I am not going to subject them to anything beyond what they already do routine wise it's pretty much like clockwork with them. But I want as accurate as information as possible for the thermal pictures and relating it with my tortoises heating ability (or disability) in relation with my husbandry ways and extra Virgin coconut oil applications under these lamps. I know this sample is very small as it is only 2 tortoises getting recorded but it will at least show me if I am harming them or helping them by doing these applications in a thermo regulatory way. I want to share it with all of you.

So I have narrowed my time frame to capture the heating up process with the camera from after a night of sleep and them waking up to bask. Both bask for awhile in the morning. Everyday like clockwork. Nibbles probably basks until he his in the mid 90s then seeks food. Pebbles on the other hand will feed the second food is there or at least guard it lol regardless of Temps reached.
Nibbles won't eat until he gets nice and warm. Doesn't matter what I taunt him with lol. Pebbles will eat whenever at the moment.

There are a couple reasons I am doing this and I am very curious about a couple things that I am subjecting my tortosies too. Obviously only love and compassion.... :) but still it tweaks me out about how much coconut oil I apply to them, despite very obvious positive differences (in my opinoin) I have seen since starting these applications.

I kinda got my idea of using Extra Virgin coconut oil from Andy highfield and Francis Baines talk about the dehydrating effects of these lamps. Link: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/83263/
Start on POST #66


And Francis Baines talk: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/

About how these lamps produce "unfiltered" IR-A and that tortoises are subjected to that day in and day out for hours on end. Coupled with dangerously low humidity as pointed out by Andy these lamps pose an issue for us keepers. This is because the absence of a atmosphere under indoor lamps means those lamps which emit high levels are 'unfiltered' IR-A don't pass through an atmosphere to become "filtered" which then means the water most available to take is from the tortoises shell and skin. They say it better then I can.

Anyways, I chose to start using the coconut oil applications and doing what I was doing. It's all laid out in my coconut oil thread. So now I am here 3.5 months later after consistent applications ranging between 2x-3x a week and I want to know the best way to proceed on doing this correctly so it can be used possibly to help clarify EVCO and how it affects my tortoises thermal regulation as well as how these lamps heat the tortoise and how fast water is taken.
I'll post all my equipment once I have it. But this is just my start. Any advice is more then welcome.

-Shaun
 

glitch4200

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I HOPE YOUR READY! I could not help myself... So after work i got rented the Thermal Imaging Camera. This camera costs $2,895, i practically signed my life away to rent it -_-. Home Depot is charging 45$ for 4 hours or 75$ a day, but i found a loop hole and went before they were closing so i have all night with it and morning to use it for $45. Not a bad deal. So i hope your ready i got a lot of thermal images paired with the actual image. This thread is a way for me to analyze and store my data all in one safe place. I welcome comments. And i see this was moved to tortoise health. Fair enough. :) Sorry but this is going to be image heavy.
 

glitch4200

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So after I ate and smoked, o_0. I took out my handy dandy FLIR-E6 thermal imaging camera and shot the following images: I would like to note Pebbles who is pictured in this set had a bath today and a full slathering of extra virgin coconut oil application at about 5:45pm. She has received EVCO applications since December 7th, 2014, 2x-3x a week rotating. I took these pictures at 9:30ish and i am still taking some now. I would also like to note that these all 3 lamps were turned on at 7:30am this morning. So run time was about 14 hours non stop, my fan was not on either. Usually it is to lower the ambient temps a bit and get a good breeze. Currently, her habitat is small but according to my images i can still provide a very decent temperature gradient provided the size she is living in.
FLIR0056.jpg FLIR0055.jpg FLIR0060.jpg FLIR0059.jpg FLIR0062.jpg FLIR0061.jpg FLIR0066.jpg FLIR0065.jpg
 

leigti

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This is interesting but I do have one problem with it.how do you know what the readings would've been if you weren't putting the coconut oil on them? To be scientific you need a control group without coconut oil and the group with it and have all the other factors the same such as temperature humidity type of light, species and age of tortoise, and other factors I'm not thinking of right now. Basically tortoises living in the same enclosure and some with coconut oil and some without. it would be best to have two or four or six tortoises from the same batch to make the two groups out of in my opinion. there may be somebody out there who would do this sort of scientific experiment. I would be interested to see what the more experienced breeders and keepers think about an experiment like this and if they would be willing to do it.
 

leigti

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Remind me, are you putting the oil just on the show are also their head and legs? I ask because from what I can tell on the thermal imaging the entire tortoise seems to be the same temperature.
 

glitch4200

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This is interesting but I do have one problem with it.how do you know what the readings would've been if you weren't putting the coconut oil on them? To be scientific you need a control group without coconut oil and the group with it and have all the other factors the same such as temperature humidity type of light, species and age of tortoise, and other factors I'm not thinking of right now. Basically tortoises living in the same enclosure and some with coconut oil and some without. it would be best to have two or four or six tortoises from the same batch to make the two groups out of in my opinion. there may be somebody out there who would do this sort of scientific experiment. I would be interested to see what the more experienced breeders and keepers think about an experiment like this and if they would be willing to do it.

I know.. unfortunately i started both on applications so i have no control group. but this gives me good data as to the current conditions and ability of my tortoises thermal regulation as well as how well i provide a true temperature gradient. The morning experiment will be the key. When they are cooled and just wake up for there morning bask. That will give me some idea how well they heat, if its even, and how long it takes to reach a core body temperature.
 

glitch4200

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Remind me, are you putting the oil just on the show are also their head and legs? I ask because from what I can tell on the thermal imaging the entire tortoise seems to be the same temperature.

Yes i am. I want to publicly say that my hypothesis is that this oil helps even out the way these lamps actually heat the tortoise... Instead of a localized spot it allows for slower more even heating. I still believe it keeps hydration in and prevents localized heating. Maybe I am right, maybe i am wrong. And i know 2 tortoises won't give you answer, as it is not enough sample to give conclusion.
 

leigti

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What is normal thermal regulation for a tortoise? You need to know that to know if the oil is doing what you want to do or not. I agree that it makes the shell like gorgeous but everything else is hard to know with out a control.
 

G-stars

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I see your point, to see if the heat is spread over the tortoise and not in one specific area with the oil. However, what are you comparing it to?
 

glitch4200

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What is normal thermal regulation for a tortoise? You need to know that to know if the oil is doing what you want to do or not. I agree that it makes the shell like gorgeous but everything else is hard to know with out a control.


My goal was to make sure my tortoises are still reaching a core temperature of at least upper 90's if it so chooses. Isn't it critical for proper digestion and synthesis of micronutrients? These couple pictures shows beginning evidence of even heating in my tortoises in my habitat, with the coconut oil present on skin and shell.. Even without a control.. I just may not be able to do full compare and contrast.
 

glitch4200

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I see your point, to see if the heat is spread over the tortoise and not in one specific area with the oil. However, what are you comparing it to?

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/infrared-sunlight-vs-basking-lamps.84606/ POST #13
range3.jpg
 

leigti

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Your other thread gives a little better anecdotal information because you do have a before and after pictures. but without some "before" data I don't feel that this thread is helpful. i'm sorry to be such a wet blanket, I guess I am just more of a scientist. I know that you're very passionate about this and you mean well and you're not hurting your tortoises as far as we know. And I know you don't want to get more tortoises and not do the oil etc. and I don't blame you. But please don't get too hooked on the information you are getting from the infrared camera. Please if there is anybody else out there who has suggestions please share them. I am interested in this so please don't take what I'm saying as criticism. if it was a different time in my life I would gladly do the experiment but I just can't now.
 

glitch4200

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Your other thread gives a little better anecdotal information because you do have a before and after pictures. but without some "before" data I don't feel that this thread is helpful. i'm sorry to be such a wet blanket, I guess I am just more of a scientist. I know that you're very passionate about this and you mean well and you're not hurting your tortoises as far as we know. And I know you don't want to get more tortoises and not do the oil etc. and I don't blame you. But please don't get too hooked on the information you are getting from the infrared camera. Please if there is anybody else out there who has suggestions please share them. I am interested in this so please don't take what I'm saying as criticism. if it was a different time in my life I would gladly do the experiment but I just can't now.

I completely understand. But maybe putting this out there will allow someone else who is willing to take thermal imaging of there tortoise who has never received a coconut oil treatment, then we could compare this. I will definitely try very hard to not draw any conclusion, i know scientifically this is a poor experiment. But at least i'll have something to work with, and over the years who knows what will happen. I have a male and female russian, soo ya never know. I do want to raise babies. So at a later point if that happends, i will be able to have a control and a experimental group.
 

glitch4200

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The picture with the heated grid like pattern on the tortoise above is what can happen with these lamps, these red lit areas are rich blood vessel areas that are heating up and vibrating as a result of the intense "unfiltred" IR-A. This does not happen in nature... This is what i want to see.. If this happening to my tortoises which each have 3 lamps in each habitat when they go to heat back up in the morning.
 

biochemnerd808

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One thing you need to keep in mind is that in order to be able to compare your images with the images in the other study, you need to calibrate your thermal imaging camera to the same scale as theirs. In yours, most everything shows up as orange and red. It looks like yellow is the hottest in yours? Your pictures show nicely how there are different temperatures present in the surroundings. The shells are mostly orange, with some yellow - which means that there are some different temperatures present on the shell. is there any way to calibrate the thermal imaging so that there is a wider differentiation on the actual shell? You would need very accurate and sensitive equipment to get a usable reading. Otherwise it's just confirming that 'yup, that tortoise is warm'.
Interesting hypothesis, but I agree with earlier statements that without a) a control group (no coco oil), and without b) a statistically significant test group population, this is unlikely to make waves, except for maybe with the sheer volume of posts you are writing.
 

glitch4200

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One thing you need to keep in mind is that in order to be able to compare your images with the images in the other study, you need to calibrate your thermal imaging camera to the same scale as theirs. In yours, most everything shows up as orange and red. It looks like yellow is the hottest in yours? Your pictures show nicely how there are different temperatures present in the surroundings. The shells are mostly orange, with some yellow - which means that there are some different temperatures present on the shell. is there any way to calibrate the thermal imaging so that there is a wider differentiation on the actual shell? You would need very accurate and sensitive equipment to get a usable reading. Otherwise it's just confirming that 'yup, that tortoise is warm'.
Interesting hypothesis, but I agree with earlier statements that without a) a control group (no coco oil), and without b) a statistically significant test group population, this is unlikely to make waves, except for maybe with the sheer volume of posts you are writing.

I can actually i just figured it out.. I can calibrate it to certain footage and get more indepth reading at the length, I apologize this is my very first time doing anything like this or using equipment like this.. Amateur over here :p. I know i am going to make a lot of mistakes with how i present myself and my thoughts ideas and information. Haha thank you all for being patient with me! I am very grateful for suggestions and input. I know this a very good thermal imaging camera, i probably just dont know how to use it correctly to portray what i am trying to do here. So ill probably just end up with a whole bunch of Pebble and Nibbles habiats and Thermal Imaging selfies haha. But maybe one day this could be compared to someone willing to try this
 
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