TN Tortoise Laws?

[TNBoxie]

Can someone please clarify these TN Tortoise owning/purchasing laws as if I am a child? I'm an adult, but I think it's widely accepted that TN Turtle/tortoise laws are confusing... I haven't found any clear information.

I've done tons of research for a while and would like to get a hatchling tortoise. I was looking to purchase from either Garden State Tortoise or Tort Stork.

I've found that the majority of places cite the 4" carapace law... Is this just to cover them legally to sell hatchlings in the name of education or research? I know these businesses are not ones to sell a tortoise flippantly, so I'm wondering if mention of this law is to maintain a legal loophole?

The 4" carapace law is also in TN law, but seems to apply to in-state purchases...

Can someone please clarify? Am I good if I just have receipts and proper paperwork? Is there anything else I need to know about owning a tortoise in TN? I'd love to move on from the legal compliance issues and move forward with this process.

Thanks!

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't know Tennessee specifically, but usually state laws pertain to indigenous turtles and tortoises, and not to species that don't occur naturally in your state. I think New Jersey might be the only state where other species are listed.

The 4" rule was enlisted because of salmonella, and it was felt a child wouldn't be able to put a turtle larger than 4" in their mouth. It's a Federal law, and doesn't refer to private parties, only businesses.

 

[TNBoxie]

I don't know Tennessee specifically, but usually state laws pertain to indigenous turtles and tortoises, and not to species that don't occur naturally in your state. I think New Jersey might be the only state where other species are listed.

Thank you. I did find some information concerning native species and wild-catch. It was somewhat helpful. No tortoises were listed.

 

[jaizei]

Can someone please clarify these TN Tortoise owning/purchasing laws as if I am a child? I'm an adult, but I think it's widely accepted that TN Turtle/tortoise laws are confusing... I haven't found any clear information.

I've done tons of research for a while and would like to get a hatchling tortoise. I was looking to purchase from either Garden State Tortoise or Tort Stork.

I've found that the majority of places cite the 4" carapace law... Is this just to cover them legally to sell hatchlings in the name of education or research? I know these businesses are not ones to sell a tortoise flippantly, so I'm wondering if mention of this law is to maintain a legal loophole?

The 4" carapace law is also in TN law, but seems to apply to in-state purchases...

Can someone please clarify? Am I good if I just have receipts and proper paperwork? Is there anything else I need to know about owning a tortoise in TN? I'd love to move on from the legal compliance issues and move forward with this process.

Thanks!

Anyone that cites the scientific, educational, and research "loophole" does not understand what they are talking about. I believe the FDA has clarified that a sign with that disclaimer is not enough (I say sign because this was largely pre-Internet and was directed at pet stores.) The key term is bona fide. In order to claim compliance with that exception, they have to ensure that they are in fact selling to a buyer who is legitimately using the turtles for those purposes. They try to shoehorn their way into that exception because they are obviously running a business and can't claim the hobbyist exception.

Tennessee has a law thats similar to the FDA rule. 1200-14-01-.36 Whereas the FDA rule applies to sellers, the Tennessee law includes the word "import" so it could conceivably be enforced against a buyer also. So 4" or under may be iffy. If you buy a tortoise over 4", should be ok as far as I have seen.

 

[RandyTortoise]

Yeah, that 4 inch limit is for business selling to the public. The law was meant to target water turtles only (as baby tortoises cannot generally carry salmonella) but the vast majorly of people think everything with a shell is a turtle and will look right at your tortoise and call it a turtle 10 times. People also think tortoises can swim, hell a turtle can swim.
Then you take politicians, drafting a law and guess what happens?

 

[TNBoxie]

Maybe my question should have been phrased this way: Do the law makers even truly know how this law applies? Thank you for clarifying. When I search specifically pertaining to tortoises, it does seem more flexible. But like you said, most folks think of turtle/tortoise as one in the same.

 

[RandyTortoise]

Maybe my question should have been phrased this way: Do the law makers even truly know how this law applies? Thank you for clarifying. When I search specifically pertaining to tortoises, it does seem more flexible. But like you said, most folks think of turtle/tortoise as one and the same.

No I don’t think they know how it is applied. Also I’ll bet many people don’t even know the law is on the books

 

[jaizei]

Maybe my question should have been phrased this way: Do the law makers even truly know how this law applies? Thank you for clarifying. When I search specifically pertaining to tortoises, it does seem more flexible. But like you said, most folks think of turtle/tortoise as one in the same.

To this new question, no. Most people do not understand it.

For turtle vs tortoise, unless a specific species is given, "turtle" should be presumed to mean all animals in the order Testudines (formerly Chelonia). Below is the definition used for the FDA law, Tennessee is basically the same without the exception.

21 CFR § 1240.62 Turtles intrastate and interstate requirements.
(a) Definition. As used in this section the term “turtles” includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families Dermachelidae and Chelonidae).


Further, I would be skeptical of claims that tortoise do not carry salmonella and that its a water turtle issue. I've read multiple studies concerning the prevalence of salmonella among reptiles with the rate among tortoises higher than water turtles.

 

[RandyTortoise]

To this new question, no. Most people do not understand it.

For turtle vs tortoise, unless a specific species is given, "turtle" should be presumed to mean all animals in the order Testudines (formerly Chelonia). Below is the definition used for the FDA law, Tennessee is basically the same without the exception.

21 CFR § 1240.62 Turtles intrastate and interstate requirements.
(a) Definition. As used in this section the term “turtles” includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families Dermachelidae and Chelonidae).


Further, I would be skeptical of claims that tortoise do not carry salmonella and that its a water turtle issue. I've read multiple studies concerning the prevalence of salmonella among reptiles with the rate among tortoises higher than water turtles.

I would highly doubt tortoises carry salmonella. Tortoise are generally dry. Salmonella does not germinate on a dry surface. Sorry, I don’t believe it. If that is true, where are all the people on this forum that touch baby tortoise all day and slippery getting salmonella? It doesn’t happen and if someone said they got it from a tortoise probably got it from somewhere else.

 

[jaizei]

I would highly doubt tortoises carry salmonella. Tortoise are generally dry. Salmonella does not germinate on a dry surface. Sorry, I don’t believe it. If that is true, where are all the people on this forum that touch baby tortoise all day and slippery getting salmonella? It doesn’t happen and if someone said they got it from a tortoise probably got it from somewhere else.

You are aware that many, possibly most, cases of salmonella go untreated? "Food poisoning." "48-72 hour bugs." "stomach flu." All could have been caused by salmonella.

Also, I'm pretty sure tortoises aren't "dry" internally.

 

[RandyTortoise]

You are aware that many, possibly most, cases of salmonella go untreated? "Food poisoning." "48-72 hour bugs." "stomach flu." All could have been caused by salmonella.

Also, I'm pretty sure tortoises aren't "dry" internally.

Right. They are not dry “internally” so don’t share a food or water dish with any reptile.

Salmonella is not contracted by holding a baby tortoise. If salmonella is inside a tortoise holding it will never give you salmonella.

So, this goes for all animals and not just retiles.

The vast majority of kids with salmonella don’t come from any tortoise. It is from the 1,000 other things a kid put in his mouth all day long.

Tortoises are 100% safe. If not, ask anyone on this forum to let us know if their tortoise gave them salmonella and can the prove it? I’ll bet there isn’t anyone

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

If I remember correctly, there are a few Salmonella species and some are reptile-specific. Primary way of transmission was through contact with feces. This question often arises in bearded dragon keepers community: no cases reported so far but theoretically it's possible.