Tort Science

[Assante]

I have been doing a lot of reading on the forum and I have been reading about closed chamber enclosures. I reasoning behind it that I am understanding is that hatching live in borrows for the first part of their life, correct?

I know that at that time hatchings have an abundance of food, correct?

If they live in a barrow for that first part if their life due to predators, when do they get sunlight? When do they come out to eat? At night?

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[Puckles🐢]

Hi Assante! Your question is great but is vague, if your referring to species of tortoise. Yes you are correct tortoises that are hatchlings feed off their yolk sack until it is absorbed into their shell. Now we're getting into the part where your question is vague too me, some tortoises live 95% of their life underground like the mojave toroise. but even though hatchlings get yolk sacks they only last for a certain amount of time until they have to eat like their parents. And most tortoises I know besides maybe the gopher tortoise, are diurnal which means they are most active during the day

 

[Tom]

I have been doing a lot of reading on the forum and I have been reading about closed chamber enclosures. I reasoning behind it that I am understanding is that hatching live in borrows for the first part of their life, correct?

I know that at that time hatchings have an abundance of food, correct?

If they live in a barrow for that first part if their life due to predators, when do they get sunlight? When do they come out to eat? At night?

Sent from my LG-MS770 using TortForum mobile app

GOOD QUESTIONS!!!

The truth is that NO ONE in the whole world knows what sulcata babies do in the wild. We don't know where they hang out, how they spend their time or what they eat. The foremost expert on wild sulcatas that I have ever met is my friend Tomas from Senegal. He has been observing and studying wild sulcatas since he was a boy. He has only ever seen three hatchlings in the wild in his whole life. He saw all three in October of 2011, in a marshy area, in the protected area where he's been releasing captive bred Senegalese sulcatas since 2006. He saw them at the start of the rainy season. He told me that with in a couple of weeks of the first rains the grass and underbrush is so thick that they all just disappear and are not seen again until they are around 10" or so. No one knows where they go or what they do. Sort of like sea turtles. Ever see hatchling sea turtles? Of course we have. Flopping their way down the beach on the way to the water. Ever seen an adult sea turtle? Of course. They practically bump into you in Hawaii. Ever seen a 4-6" sea turtle? I haven't. Where do they go?

Anyhow, we get little tidbits of info here and there. A leopard breeder told me that his African researcher friend has observed leopard tortoise hatchlings eating mammal feces as a primary food source in the wild. No wonder they all like soaked Mazuri so much. My friend Tomas mentioned about does a lot of captive breeding in giant all natural enclosures and the babies all hatch at the start of the rainy season. The weather and conditions there are "Hot, humid, rainy, and marshy", "and there is food everywhere." (Picture Tomas with arms outstretched and a big smile as he says this.)

In any case, with the lack of real data and facts, we are left to observe what works and what doesn't work in captivity. Dry does not work. Warm and humid does. Both of these facts have been proven and re-proven thousands of times. In my large somewhat "natural" enclosures, my hatchlings avoid any sort of burrow or hole in the ground as if their life depended on it. I am speaking of sulcatas, leopards and CDTs here. They like to tuck into plant bases, root balls or "tussocks" as some like to call them. My sulcatas don't usually try to dig at all until they are at least 7-8" long. My hatchlings spend most of their time outside hiding amongst their food. I see them take bites here and there, and over time, the weeds disappear pretty quickly. They don't really get out in the open and sun like the adults do, but they get a lot of indirect and dappled sun through the leaves of the plants in their enclosures.

Ask more questions! Keep this going.

---

Hi Assante! Your question is great but is vague, if your referring to species of tortoise. Yes you are correct tortoises that are hatchlings feed off their yolk sack until it is absorbed into their shell. Now we're getting into the part where your question is vague too me, some tortoises live 95% of their life underground like the mojave toroise. but even though hatchlings get yolk sacks they only last for a certain amount of time until they have to eat like their parents.

My hatchling sulcatas eat right after hatchling even with a big honkin' yolk sac under them that is so round that they can't even touch the ground with all four feet at the same time. I have a hatchling russian with a yolk sac right now that has not yet touched any food. Past leopard hatchlings didn't eat until the yolk sac was mostly absorbed.

So this might be different for different species.

 

[Puckles🐢]

I have been doing a lot of reading on the forum and I have been reading about closed chamber enclosures. I reasoning behind it that I am understanding is that hatching live in borrows for the first part of their life, correct?

I know that at that time hatchings have an abundance of food, correct?

If they live in a barrow for that first part if their life due to predators, when do they get sunlight? When do they come out to eat? At night?

Sent from my LG-MS770 using TortForum mobile app

GOOD QUESTIONS!!!

The truth is that NO ONE in the whole world knows what sulcata babies do in the wild. We don't know where they hang out, how they spend their time or what they eat. The foremost expert on wild sulcatas that I have ever met is my friend Tomas from Senegal. He has been observing and studying wild sulcatas since he was a boy. He has only ever seen three hatchlings in the wild in his whole life. He saw all three in October of 2011, in a marshy area, in the protected area where he's been releasing captive bred Senegalese sulcatas since 2006. He saw them at the start of the rainy season. He told me that with in a couple of weeks of the first rains the grass and underbrush is so thick that they all just disappear and are not seen again until they are around 10" or so. No one knows where they go or what they do. Sort of like sea turtles. Ever see hatchling sea turtles? Of course we have. Flopping their way down the beach on the way to the water. Ever seen an adult sea turtle? Of course. They practically bump into you in Hawaii. Ever seen a 4-6" sea turtle? I haven't. Where do they go?

Anyhow, we get little tidbits of info here and there. A leopard breeder told me that his African researcher friend has observed leopard tortoise hatchlings eating mammal feces as a primary food source in the wild. No wonder they all like soaked Mazuri so much. My friend Tomas mentioned about does a lot of captive breeding in giant all natural enclosures and the babies all hatch at the start of the rainy season. The weather and conditions there are "Hot, humid, rainy, and marshy", "and there is food everywhere." (Picture Tomas with arms outstretched and a big smile as he says this.)

In any case, with the lack of real data and facts, we are left to observe what works and what doesn't work in captivity. Dry does not work. Warm and humid does. Both of these facts have been proven and re-proven thousands of times. In my large somewhat "natural" enclosures, my hatchlings avoid any sort of burrow or hole in the ground as if their life depended on it. I am speaking of sulcatas, leopards and CDTs here. They like to tuck into plant bases, root balls or "tussocks" as some like to call them. My sulcatas don't usually try to dig at all until they are at least 7-8" long. My hatchlings spend most of their time outside hiding amongst their food. I see them take bites here and there, and over time, the weeds disappear pretty quickly. They don't really get out in the open and sun like the adults do, but they get a lot of indirect and dappled sun through the leaves of the plants in their enclosures.

Ask more questions! Keep this going.

---

Hi Assante! Your question is great but is vague, if your referring to species of tortoise. Yes you are correct tortoises that are hatchlings feed off their yolk sack until it is absorbed into their shell. Now we're getting into the part where your question is vague too me, some tortoises live 95% of their life underground like the mojave toroise. but even though hatchlings get yolk sacks they only last for a certain amount of time until they have to eat like their parents.

My hatchling sulcatas eat right after hatchling even with a big honkin' yolk sac under them that is so round that they can't even touch the ground with all four feet at the same time. I have a hatchling russian with a yolk sac right now that has not yet touched any food. Past leopard hatchlings didn't eat until the yolk sac was mostly absorbed.

So this might be different for different species.

---

I think what I meant to say on the yolk sacks is that they don't really need food with the yolk sack not fully absorbed but who says tortoises have to be like other tortoises right? I was whondering the same thin about hatchlings on where they go after hatching but I suppose they do similar things as turtles

 

[JennBell0725]

Tom my hatchlings do that in their tank. They have two humid hides that they use sometimes but normally they are tucked up at the base of their ice plants or sprawled out under the basking bulb lol

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---

Not a great pic but this is how they like to sleep.(not an ice plant)

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[Assante]

When I am speaking about tortoises I am mainly referring to Sulcatas because I am a proud Sulcata father.

The reason I started these questions is because I seen a post from a lady who showed a picture of a very smooth Sulcata. On that post she stated she used no UV artificial or natural and the smooth was all thanks to diet.

That made me think of all the things Tom wrote about how Sulcatas most likely live underground for the first part if their life and we don't are them. That made me think, if I was a small hatching afraid to be eaten I wouldn't come out of my burrow unless it was face. I would come out when no one could see me, at night. I would come out when there is no Sun.

So if my theory is correct, when would a hatching get UV?

If I am way off please correct me!

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[Levi the Leopard]

Re: RE: Tort Science

So if my theory is correct, when would a hatching get UV?

If I am way off please correct me!

Sent from my LG-MS770 using TortForum mobile app

A tortoise gets more UV outside than what they get from artificial lighting by far. Outside, UV bounces around and they can still absorb UV while in the shade.

The hatchlings would get UV even while hiding in the thick plants.

Some tend to compare a tort's need for UV exposure outdoors with the recommended indoor lighting schedule. Indoors you keep your UV lights on 12+ hours. They don't need 12 hours of direct sun light outside because the sun does a far better job with much better strength than any man made light could do.

I have no doubt that hatchlings hidden in burrows and at the base of plants gets sufficient UV without exposed basking in the open.

Heather
sent while on my purple android TFOapp

 

[Tom]

When I am speaking about tortoises I am mainly referring to Sulcatas because I am a proud Sulcata father.

The reason I started these questions is because I seen a post from a lady who showed a picture of a very smooth Sulcata. On that post she stated she used no UV artificial or natural and the smooth was all thanks to diet.

That made me think of all the things Tom wrote about how Sulcatas most likely live underground for the first part if their life and we don't are them. That made me think, if I was a small hatching afraid to be eaten I wouldn't come out of my burrow unless it was face. I would come out when no one could see me, at night. I would come out when there is no Sun.

So if my theory is correct, when would a hatching get UV?

If I am way off please correct me!

Sent from my LG-MS770 using TortForum mobile app

I don't think hatchlings use burrows or spend time underground at all. I think they avoid burrows. I think they hide in thick brush and grasses. As Heather pointed out, I saw a study the said there is more UV in the shade in Texas than in full sun up in Canada. Near the equator hatchling sulcatas are getting their UV from dappled shade all day. Since they are hiding IN their food, they just graze and take bites at will all day.

I run my indoor lights for about 12 hours, not for UV, but because the sun is up for roughly 12 hours. Just like outside, my tortoises have the option to get out of the "sun" and into the shade.

 

[thatrebecca]

Interesting stuff. They're not hatchlings, but my juvenile CDTs seem to prefer hiding in tall plants to just about any activity -- sleeping in the burrow, exploring in the yard, basking in direct sun. They get dappled sun in there and some moisture, I presume, from the plants. And occasionally they take a bite. I think they create their own humid hide, in a way. Here's a favorite hiding spot at our house -- the monkey flower plant.

 

[Assante]

I apologize for misunderstanding you Tom. I know understand what you mean but now all I can think j is where the hell are the wild Sulcata hatchlings.

If they only hide in the thick brush and shade, why don't we see more of them?

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[Spn785]

This is really intriguing! Thank you Assante for the great question and starting this wonderful discussion!

 

[Tom]

I apologize for misunderstanding you Tom. I know understand what you mean but now all I can think j is where the hell are the wild Sulcata hatchlings.

If they only hide in the thick brush and shade, why don't we see more of them?

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According to Tomas the brush and vegetation grows shoulder high and is so thick that you can't even walk through it. So the babies are likely very close to people passing by at some times, but you'll never see them under cover that is so thick, lush, prevalent. He told me if I want to try to see the hatchlings I have to be there at the very start of the rainy season. He said after a couple of weeks of rains, you won't be able to see anything because the bush is so thick.

 

[erica anne]

This was a great topic. It is so interesting to learn how sulcatas behave in the wild!