"tortoise chips"

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,172
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
Hey All,

So I've sent out six more samples last week, and approaching 20 more tomorrow.

I had some trouble drying, our local humidity spiked. Most people who study Opuntia, plant physiologists, breeders for new cultivars for specific traits, and people looking for the next best nutricutical use 45C (113F )as an upper drying limit to preserve near 99.xx % large molecule nutrients and compounds. So I've been using 110F as that is where the proportional thermostat sits at best.

Opuntia is a pretty interesting plant, there are 100's of species and many cultivars of a few of them. They all have a few traits in common, like even the most spineless still have tiny micro spines. Non have anthocyanins, but rather have betalains a class of pigments that do much of the same work, but yet are different. That makes even the same shade of green (chlorophyll, yet another pigment) look different to a tortoise's eye.

But I digress, samples are going out tomorrow, and folks I told next week, will get theirs mailed this week, so delivered next week.

I am making another different size piece, this would be what I call crumbles. The re-wetting capability is much higher. but it is crumbles, not pieces.

I have kept and extra vigilant eye on the pancakes, my groups most dedicated to eating dry opuntia, and they almost seem, somewhat like Egyptians, to spend time looking in this spot and that for some dry morsel they can eat. But unlike the Egyptians, the pancakes will run to fresh over dry right away. The Egyptians show no such strong preference, they are hunt and peck predators of plants pieces.

I am thinking best to try re-wetting it no matter what. About a 15 minute soak or so, much like dry pellets, and it softens a great deal. I let some soak overnight, and it did not seem to be more soft at that point.

Please share your thoughts about Cactus Chips here or send me a PM, call me or text me 215-483-7675 (my phone was out for three days this week, sorry about that). I have included a label of sorts with the samples sent out last Saturday and those I will send out tomorrow. If you think some better text would work, please feel free to suggest it. Will

 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,172
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
Can't wait till mine come in, 5 DTs to try it out on lol

Oh I have a quick question, the pads you are using are they from young pads or older ones.
Hi Keith,

I don't know what qualifies as young or old, these are qualitative terms.

I am using pads that are less than two years old (last year's new pad) but no younger than 4 months (this years older pad), all the pads are terminal pads, that is they are the last one in the chain of pads from the ground up.. Despite the dogma associated with age and nutrition, older pads to three years have better a nutrient load and a better calcium phosphorus ratio than those pads that are just a few weeks old to a few month old. The oxalate content is much less in 'older pads', and that which is in the pad is tied to calcium already, not free to form oxalate, if absorbed, in the blood.

I understand this is not the perception common in conversation, so if you have a contrary point of view please express it with scientific literature, and not dogma.

Here is at least one study showing this nutrient trend for pads upto 120 days of age. http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Margarita_Contreras-Padilla/publication/229112409_Evaluation_of_oxalates_and_calcium_in_nopal_pads_(Opuntia_ficus-indica_var._redonda)_at_different_maturity_stages/links/00b7d5224b0b54c001000000.pdf

There is much interest in opuntia as a human food, fodder for animals, and a source of nutriceuticals and pharmaceuticals. The published peer reviewed literature is overwhelming.

In short - young pads (up to four months), even for those cultivars that are spineless or have very reduced spines, have the highest load of compounds that are not desirable for nutrition typically sought for tortoises, and the plant has evolved to do that as those pads are the most "defenseless". I understand that for human food consumption the younger pads may cook best in casseroles, pickled etc. but they are not optimal for tortoise food.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,389
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
This is very interesting, Will. I have always chosen the very young pads because they are softer and easier for the babies to bite. But I guess I'll have to change my way of thinking.
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,172
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
This is very interesting, Will. I have always chosen the very young pads because they are softer and easier for the babies to bite. But I guess I'll have to change my way of thinking.
Yeah, that was a hard thing for me to see how opposite the thinking is with what food nutritionists find when they evaluate pads. Those young pads are easier to eat, that's why people like them. And eating pads has been an ongoing thing for 7000 years, the spineless varieties are had been very rare, or recently developed.

There are a number of nutrient and pharmaceutical researchers, the FAO and independent investigators all over the world looking into Opuntia as a food item. Aside from trying a few chips I have made, I gotta say, it tastes pretty good when cooked into some dishes. Lucky for me Tamara is an all-in food person.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,389
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
(I find it very interesting that you have made your complete post (#25) into a link. You devil, you!)
 

Keith D.

Active Member
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
319
Location (City and/or State)
Arizona
Hi Keith,

I don't know what qualifies as young or old, these are qualitative terms.

I am using pads that are less than two years old (last year's new pad) but no younger than 4 months (this years older pad), all the pads are terminal pads, that is they are the last one in the chain of pads from the ground up.. Despite the dogma associated with age and nutrition, older pads to three years have better a nutrient load and a better calcium phosphorus ratio than those pads that are just a few weeks old to a few month old. The oxalate content is much less in 'older pads', and that which is in the pad is tied to calcium already, not free to form oxalate, if absorbed, in the blood.

I understand this is not the perception common in conversation, so if you have a contrary point of view please express it with scientific literature, and not dogma.

Here is at least one study showing this nutrient trend for pads upto 120 days of age. http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Margarita_Contreras-Padilla/publication/229112409_Evaluation_of_oxalates_and_calcium_in_nopal_pads_(Opuntia_ficus-indica_var._redonda)_at_different_maturity_stages/links/00b7d5224b0b54c001000000.pdf

There is much interest in opuntia as a human food, fodder for animals, and a source of nutriceuticals and pharmaceuticals. The published peer reviewed literature is overwhelming.

In short - young pads (up to four months), even for those cultivars that are spineless or have very reduced spines, have the highest load of compounds that are not desirable for nutrition typically sought for tortoises, and the plant has evolved to do that as those pads are the most "defenseless". I understand that for human food consumption the younger pads may cook best in casseroles, pickled etc. but they are not optimal for tortoise food.
I agree with you on this Will, that is why I as asking young or older. I feed nothing but pads that are 1 to 3 years old.
 

Prairie Mom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
4,340
Okay, WIll:) "Mavis" has 2 clear favorites!!!
First off, I consider the dehydrated Opuntia a complete success. I would absolutely consider getting more to mix in her food over the winter.

I soaked all four varieties separately in warm water for about 2hrs.
mavis all 4 choices.jpg 4 choices.jpg
I placed all four choices (planks, chips, angel hair, and shoe-string) equally in front of my 15.5lb young Sulcata and watched what she chose to go for.


mavis chips.jpg
The first one she decided to eat was the Chips from the bag labeled "24gms Chips."


finishing angel hair.jpg
She ate nearly all the chips, when the angel hair caught her eye. She devoured the angel hair.

quick bite planks and nibble shoe string.jpg
She only took a couple quick bites of the "planks" and only a few bites of "shoe string," and then LEFT those two behind to go pick at any leftovers of the Chips and Angel hair...
back to finish chips and angel hair.jpg

Offering us choices to sample was a great idea. Mavis clearly has favorites (which really surprise me!). I would consider getting these again during the winter.
THANK YOU, WILL!
 

Prairie Mom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
4,340
I've really liked the dehydrated opuntia and am seriously thinking about your $cost question. I haven't quite decided yet. I'll share a couple things on my mind...I think your biggest market is going to be cold climate keepers like myself. Those of us that are crazy enough to keep these animals in such hostile environments have had to become quite savvy with their diet and ability to feed during the winter. -Many of us are gardeners and learning to produce and store our own healthy foods for our tortoises over the winters. Gardeners are notoriously thrifty AKA CHEAP.

Some things that would help me and probably others, would be a little salesmanship on why I should be seeking this out as a food source. Remember, we're learning to dry and store high calcium foods like mulberry and grape leaves etc. So, I'd really like a good pitch on why I should pay to add this to my tortoise's diet. I am also a very visual person and a visual thinker. It would help me to actually SEE the food in the bag before I could comfortably say how much I'm willing to spend.
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,172
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
That is all sorta (interesting) funny. My tortoises have shown some preference for the chips as well. The angel hair and shoestrings shapes as I sent them to you are problematic with getting a good drying, I made most of the rest of the sample using those diameters but in short lengths, they too are problematic for cutting. The planks offer no advantage and maybe are to onerous to handle. I have started cutting the 'chips' a bit thinner, and they can be crumpled in your hand or kept as whole pieces as you may wish.

As for salesmanship, yeah, I'm working on that, but your help with product development right now is more important, and your feedback is worth a great deal.

I have some packaging and image ideas and will show those to you at some point.

I agree slightly warm water is best, I have soaked for as long as it takes me to cut up the escarole and romaine for the day, and un-measured number of minutes.

And I'm glad your tortoise liked it. My wife keeps giggling about this whole project, but also says how good the it all smells. She is always willing to try something new to eat, so we have used some Opuntia in out cooking (there are recipes online) so now I have to compete with her and my mother-in-law for pads before I start processing them.
 

Prairie Mom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
4,340
I think the shorter lengths of angel hair and shoe-string will be better. I worried a little as I watched her sucking down those long strands. I wished I had broken it up a bit as viewed her snacking. -So, I think you've made a great improvement there. How funny that your tortoises like the chips too. I really never would have guessed this.

In regards to the salesmanship, I'm excited to learn how these are nutrionally and claimed health benefits. I've heard of people eating them too. I think it's awesome that you and your wife are trying them out:) They really do smell nice.
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,172
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
The nutrients in the chips I have have not been evaluated, I can only cite what other have found doing studies. Most food for animals and people have values measured per production batch or per ton or some other increment. I may get a proximate analysis done of the chips I am producing, but until then, I can only quote what others have found with the oputia they have evaluated. That is why I am suggesting they are simply a good form of long fiber.

What others have found and I can quote many studies, but will not do that in this particular post is that the mucilage in the opuntia is very similar to the mucilage in Okra, and considered very good at moderating the digestion of whatever is in the whole meal. The long fiber is not starchy, and yet digests and add carbohydrates. There are a complex of macromolecule nutrients not so abundant elsewhere in food items. Opuntia is CAM plant not a C3 or C4, not so many diet items are CAM. CAM plants use alot more energy to grow, so that means they have a higher amount of ATP in them. They have betalains, which are mutually exclusive in plants from anthocyanins (a range of plant pigments) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betalain

Why that is important is that tortoises see betalains as a different color than anthocyanins, and they seem to have a stronger appeal. When tortoises poop meals high in betalains it is not red. We can change our excrement color with the ingestion of beets, a rich source of betalains, which means we did not digest it, it was not bioavailable to us. So they have an enzyme that breaks it down, a not so fully understood nutrient, but tortoises seek it out.

Calcium Phosphorus is great on average 10:1, here it shows about 20:1 http://www.feedipedia.org/node/120 . So what value to state(?), I suggest 10:1 as it is about the lowest for the age pad I use.

Opuntia reminds me of grapes in that the same plants grown different ways in different regions produce very different fruit/wine. There are several species of Opuntia, some have only trace amount of oxalates. Most of the oxalates are not bioavailable anyways, unlike those in chard. Bioavailable indicates whether it has a good chance to be absorbed in the digestion process (is bioavailable) or does it just pass through (not bioavailable).

In short the best thing I have come to see while using the opuntia is good solid growth on several species of tortoise. But it is difficult to ascribe the good growth to the addition of opuntia, as I feed out much mulberry and other high quality foods. Opuntia defiantly qualifies as a high quality food.
 

Anyfoot

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
6,309
Location (City and/or State)
UK Sheffield
@Will. Received my optunia today. Thanks.
Looking forward to see what happens with the reds.
Be a miracle if I can get the homeana to eat it. But will try. May try and mix it with chopped worms for them. I can only get them to eat fruit,worms,slugs,snails, mushrooms and spinach. No other greens at all.
Will have a play around this weekend.

Thanks again.
 

Keith D.

Active Member
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
319
Location (City and/or State)
Arizona
Hey Will, got the opuntia today, I will let you know how it goes with my torts. Leo eats anything and everything so he should gobble it up within prob lol
 

Anyfoot

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
6,309
Location (City and/or State)
UK Sheffield
@Will. Received my optunia today. Thanks.
Looking forward to see what happens with the reds.
Be a miracle if I can get the homeana to eat it. But will try. May try and mix it with chopped worms for them. I can only get them to eat fruit,worms,slugs,snails, mushrooms and spinach. No other greens at all.
Will have a play around this weekend.

Thanks again.
Yeah mine is opuntia not optunia.:D. Not sure I can blame the phone for that error. I know I'll blame it on the kids running riot.
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,172
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
@Will. Received my optunia today. Thanks.
Looking forward to see what happens with the reds.
Be a miracle if I can get the homeana to eat it. But will try. May try and mix it with chopped worms for them. I can only get them to eat fruit,worms,slugs,snails, mushrooms and spinach. No other greens at all.
Will have a play around this weekend.

Thanks again.
I'm glad to hear this, I did not segregate your envelope from USA first class postage, nor did I put a declaration on it. I thought I would see it back in my mail box as undeliverable. I don't know if this was lucky or just the way it works. Either way I'm glad it landed.
 

Anyfoot

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
6,309
Location (City and/or State)
UK Sheffield
I'm glad to hear this, I did not segregate your envelope from USA first class postage, nor did I put a declaration on it. I thought I would see it back in my mail box as undeliverable. I don't know if this was lucky or just the way it works. Either way I'm glad it landed.
I had to take a taste myself, and its very nice, seriously it tastes good. The rest is for torts.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
I finally found a few minutes to pop open this thread and read it all. Thanks for the education Will. I did not know that the tender young pads were higher inAs you well know I feed out lots of opuntia every summer and I think you saw all my varieties. I'm glad to know that it is such good stuff. This spring I was quite tardy in getting my other plants and seeds in the ground, so I have been using all the opuntia varieties two or three times a week all summer. I'm glad to know that its such good stuff.

I'd be happy to try out some of your new stuff on my herd. I'm pretty sure they will devour it, but I'd be happy to report back whatever the results.

I think one point to emphasize to new "customers" would be that torts seldom eat new things right off the bat. Some tortoises in my herds take longer to try new foods than others. I would just hate for someone to offer your chips to their tortoise and decide after one or two attempts that this great stuff was a no go. Some of mine take weeks or months of repeated attempts to try a new food.

I love your idea here Will. Once I try it, I will invent some pricing numbers to answer your questions.
 

New Posts

Top