Tortoise Keeping - Welfare

[Baoh]

One gets out what one puts in, effort-wise.

Sorry, Baoh, but I believe that ideas/arguments should be expressed clearly - even in academic writing but especially in forums, where there are members from various different backgrounds.
It's off topic though. Of course, you can use words however you like. I just don't agree with it.

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But does anyone of you - strongly - reject indoor housing? Of course you wouldn't criticize anyone harshly - but do you really think that all tortoises should be housed outdoors (weather permitting) and can't possibly life a happy life on a tortoise table inside?

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I agree to disagree regarding the use of language. We all have different standards.

I think tortoises can be provided for to varying levels of satisfaction with an indoor enclosure. Less extensive accommodations may be needed for temporary or seasonal housing. More extensive accommodations may be more appropriate for indoor-only keeping. That also can apply to matters of size or species-specific environmental requirements. It is up to the keeper to be the judge of that. I would not let another dictate care terms, but I would always at the very least consider another person's methodology when forming or modifying my own.

 

[Sky2Mina]

Yes, I think they can have a happy life in a tort table, if all their husbandry needs are met of course......BUT....... a little sunshine when available ALWAYS feels good.

I think this is a great thread, glad you brought it up. This is just my opinion for what it's worth!

Thank you Torty mom. I do agree with you. Of course if we can house our tortoise outside it's great and always better than indoors.
I just don't think it's "fair" to tell someone they can't have a tortoise, because they don't have a garden. Yes, some people might argue it is egoistic to still want a tortoise without garden and limited access to real sunshine BUT in my opinion keeping pets in general is egoistic. We keep them because we like to have them around. Not the other way round (although some pets do enjoy being with humans ).
As long as you provide them good UVB lights, good food and bring them outside whenever possible, I think they can still have a happy life.

I think that with few exceptions (sick, injured) all adult tortoises should be housed outside. I think hatchlings and yearlings should be outside as much as possible, but since they are more vulnerable, 24/7 might not be as feasible. If I lived somewhere where this wasn't possible then I wouldn't have tortoises.

Thank you. I see your point and agree that outside is always better. But I still keep a tortoise now, although I don't have a garden (planning a bigger balcony-enclosure though).
I like that this forum is so 'tolerant'. You say "this is what I do" but not "this is what you should do too".

I agree to disagree regarding the use of language. We all have different standards.

That is true.

It is up to the keeper to be the judge of that. I would not let another dictate care terms, but I would always at the very least consider another person's methodology when forming or modifying my own.

Agreed. I just think it is difficult to not be dictated by others, if almost everyone follows "the one way" - at least in (German) forums. The ones that do keep their tortoises indoors or on their own terms don't write in forums.

Thanks for all your viewpoints! I appreciate it.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I keep several tortoises inside. I care for them in the best way possible. I also have a large outdoor Sulcata. There is someone whom I love very much who agrees (mostly) with jaizei about keeping tortoises indoors, but she would never criticize me or insult me because some of my guys live inside. BUT, my animals are obviously healthy and well kept, and I get them outside almost daily. My way of tortoise keeping is my way and even tho I might disagree with someone elses way of tort keeping it's not my business to tell them how to keep their tortoises, UNLESS, the animals are in obvious disrepair, then I would most certainly speak my mind and suggest that their animals might benefit from a better way of tort keeping.

And that, my good friends, was spoken in American. I am not English, so I do not speak English, I am American, I live in America and I speak American...

 

[Weda737]

It's not hard being nice here, keep in mind the fact that even if the keeper is doing things all wrong, they wouldn't be on this forum at all if they didn't care about their animal. Usually it's just a case of misinformation and I know we are all glad to help out others with the same interests, Our love of our pets and concern for their well being.

 

[mintybum]

Hello Everyone,

So, there was something I was wondering about.

I'm German, and when the Idea emerged of getting a tortoise I naturally looked for German information first - I got quickly discouraged getting one (until I found this Forum).

In Germany, generally, they advocate ONE right way to keep tortoises and if tortoises (mostly Testudo) are not kept this way, they will tell you that you're cruel to your animal.

So the welfare of tortoises require e.g. these standards:
- do NOT keep 1 animal alone. Even tortoise need a partner.
- an adult Testudo needs AT LEAST 10 square metres (107 square feet) of space
- you CAN'T keep your tortoise inside. It HAS TO BE outside all year round
- it HAS TO hibernate
- do NOT touch them, handle them as infrequently as possible
- I never read about force-soaking them

If I'd tell them that I currently keep my yearling star tortoise in a rubbermaid container, they'd probably stone me virtually.
I read of a hobby breeder, that said she wouldn't give her tortoise away, if the customer didn't have at least a 25 square meter (27 square feet) yard for the tortoise (Testudo). Some people in the forum said, you shouldn't let your own children handle the tortoise, because it would be too stressful for them.

While I welcome the effort to improve tortoise welfare, I don't like their idea of advocating the one right way to keep them, with no margin for different methods. I also don't like them judging and criticizing people that keep their tortoises differently (e.g. in a large terrarium).

Here in the Forum I encounter a totally different mentality - even if a new owner tells about how he feeds is tortoise only romaine, no one will criticize, just suggest nicely how to improve things. In German forums, as far as I have read, some members would answer with harsh criticism. Personally, if someone attacked me that way, I wouldn't take the advice at all.

I'm not bashing on Germans here. We're good people in general, but that's something I don't like. It does seem to be a cultural thing, because they are also specific "must meet" requirements for other animals around. I'm not sure about other (European) countries. I just wonder how they measure these "must meet" requirements. How can they say that a tortoise needs at least so-and-so much space?

It's actually pretty discouraging for a respective pet keeper: When I kept guinea pigs as a kid, and I loved them to death, I joined a forum to make sure they'd be happy. I could never meet the requirements, even though I build a large cage for them, the answer in the forum was still "no, that's too small" (after that, I never went online on that Fourm again). Also I almost can't keep any fish in my 20-gallon aquarium, because most fish "require" more space than that.

So, what I'm probably wondering is, if there are strong opinions like that in the US, UK or fellow TFO members?
And: Why are you people so "nice"? I mean, why is it that most of you are so "tolerant"? Or do some of you think that this forum is too tolerant?

I would be interested in your thoughts of this topic,
Mina

i agree about this forum, im on another one and they are so critical, most dont even bother to answer you question, i love this forum so much more.
i think you sound like you could cause a rebellion, perhaphs its time for change, swing ya bra in the air lol

 

[Yvonne G]

But does anyone of you - strongly - reject indoor housing? Of course you wouldn't criticize anyone harshly - but do you really think that all tortoises should be housed outdoors (weather permitting) and can't possibly life a happy life on a tortoise table inside?

Me...me...me!!! I do!!! I firmly believe that all tortoises should have a main or primary home outside with a secondary home indoors for inclement weather. But I also respect your right to house your animals any way you want to.

 

[mintybum]

i live in the uk with a tropical tortoise so it would be impossible to house outdoor completely ,if i oput him in a greenhouse isn't he indoors anyway?, i agree they should be outdoor as much as possible, my torty has a ramp on his pen and he roams the house when he feels like it, he is very active and sociable always following me round the house, i'd say he was very happy

 

[EKLC]

I think keeping a tortoise outdoors is great, but if you put in the effort, you can cover your bases with an indoor tort.

I have a year old leopard tortoise. With regard to temperature, he is in my room, I ensure that it never dips below 80. Can't guarantee that outside, and I live in florida. Diet, I grow weeds and grasses in his enclosure, which is large enough for him to graze. Lighting, I use a MVB and take him outside once a day for exercise and sun. I don't have to worry about predators either, which is a legitimate concern here with hawks, snakes, racoons ,etc.

I would take issue with anyone claiming I'm a cruel owner because I must live in an apartment for the time being.

 

[Balboa]

An eternal conundrum....

laws, rules, regulations, and the taxpayer funds to enforce them vs self-regulation on the part of the people. It can be hard to find the balance between anarchy and totalitarianism. I resent laws that tell me what to do, but at the same time have to see the poor choices consumers make in a market free of laws. Anyone can buy a tortoise and stick them in a 10 gallon aquarium if they want to.... and people do.

I would strongly urge anyone who cannot allow their tortoises sizeable, naturalistic, outdoor enclosures to reconsider keeping them. Can they be kept happy indoors? Yes, but it is beyond the means of most keepers. Do I really want to see laws enforcing my opinions? Nope.

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oops and oh yah,

Tag, wie gehts?
Ich habe mal in Koeln gewohnt, aber mein Deutsch ist nicht mehr so gut wie frueher mals. Dein Englisch ist Perfekt.

 

[Sky2Mina]

Do I really want to see laws enforcing my opinions? Nope.

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oops and oh yah,

Tag, wie gehts?
Ich habe mal in Koeln gewohnt, aber mein Deutsch ist nicht mehr so gut wie frueher mals. Dein Englisch ist Perfekt.

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In Germany you need permits to get a tortoise, but for the testudos they are easy to get (I think). I guess it might be helpful - the more expensive or difficult a pet is to get - the higher the chances that people are going to read about their needs beforehand.

Dein deutsch ist super. Freut mich jemanden im Forum zu sehen, der auch deutsch kann!

 

[Neal]

I think it's more of a cultural thing. Every forum or group has their own methods and techniques of how they emphasize and push specific aspects of tortoise husbandry. It seems like the German forums you referenced use a more aggressive approach, while we here take a more tactful, "nicer" approach. We here emphasize high humidity on everyone that walks in here...whether it's necessary or not isn't the point here...the point is how it is presented, which is usually in a "nice" manner. Some people like that, some prefer a more aggressive approach.

I like when others say that there is not one way to raise a healthy tortoise, and I can understand your frustration when dealing with those types of people who emphasize one magical way. I belong to tortoise groups with that mentality, a lot of the information shared in those settings makes me upset, but even there, good information comes up from time to time. So, in that sense, every group or forum has some value.

 

[Jacqui]

I think it's more of a cultural thing. Every forum or group has their own methods and techniques of how they emphasize and push specific aspects of tortoise husbandry. It seems like the German forums you referenced use a more aggressive approach, while we here take a more tactful, "nicer" approach. We here emphasize high humidity on everyone that walks in here...whether it's necessary or not isn't the point here...the point is how it is presented, which is usually in a "nice" manner. Some people like that, some prefer a more aggressive approach.

I like when others say that there is not one way to raise a healthy tortoise, and I can understand your frustration when dealing with those types of people who emphasize one magical way. I belong to tortoise groups with that mentality, a lot of the information shared in those settings makes me upset, but even there, good information comes up from time to time. So, in that sense, every group or forum has some value.

Nicely said and I very much agree with your points. Helps that I tend to be one of those who doesn't rush into the one way only mentality perhaps. Would be nice if there was such a magical way, wouldn't it? *sigh* well we can all dream.