Tortoise not urinating

[COmtnLady]

When you say you take him out to walk, what does that mean?

if i increase temperature - humidity will drop to 32-30.

Do you keep him in a CLOSED chamber? Until we figure out what is going on with his health, he needs the warmth and humidity That means a top on the enclosure that has NO vents or holes.. A top that seals to the sides of the enclosure tightly enough that zero amounts of heat and humidity can escape is needed. It is very important that the humidity and heat be contained and you cannot contain them if the top isn't sealed tightly. Small openings around lights or other things will act as a chimney and suck the heat and humidity out, so they MUST be sealed. Increasing heat should not affect the humidity that drastically.

I give him it by syringe (without needle) to his mouth. Also i give him drink the same way.

Why do you force-feed these items? That is very dangerous and should be done ONLY as a "last resort". It is easy for liquid to go into his lungs. Very bad. When someone here says "try mineral oil", they mean put the mineral oil on a leaf and roll it up so that when your tortoise eats the leaf he also eats the mineral oil. And force feeding the water is not necessary at all. Between soaking and having a water dish easily accessible in the enclosure at all times, he should take in water on his own. While soaking they absorb water through skin and cloaca, too., besides drinking If you say he doesn't drink, what it means is that you aren't SEEING him drink. If he has clean water available in his enclosure whenever he wants it, he will drink - and, again, also they get hydrated while soaking. Stop the syringe force feeding. You could kill your tortoise doing that.

It can be one cucumber twice a week.

How much cucumber each time - one slice like a coin, or whole cucumber, or some other amount? And how much of that did he swallow?




In one of the posts above you say he has chronic kidney disease. How do you know this? What have you been doing to make things easier on his damaged kidneys? If his kidneys are not working, he can not pee.





I am also concerned that he may be peeing in the soak and you are not seeing it. 4 hours of soaking is a long time. Normally it wouldn't hurt, but while we are trying to solve the mystery of what is going on, it would be better to only soak for a half hour to an hour. Are you watching that the water is warm ALL the time he is in the water? If it cools down only a few degrees it can affect his ability to pee and poop, digest food, move around, and much more. When a tortoise gets cold it slows down. The impact of getting chilled at this time of year is twice as strong because tortoises in the wild would be brumating right now, would be asleep until it warms up in the Springtime.

Idea:
I would try an experiment, completely covering the floor of his enclosure with paper for several days. If he pees while you are asleep or away, the paper will show it.



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[er9m]

The chamber is not that closed as you've mentioned. But even if i close it quite tightly, humidity is still around 30. And again, closing it as tight, as you say - what kind of air quality tortoise will have? Ok, i'll stop giving him water and mineral oil by syringe. What about a cucumber - he can eat it whole at once, but i give him about 5-6 slices at once. What about CKD - vet did tests and found out it. I already mentioned, that i keep him already on underpads which are similar to paper - so i don't see, that he is urinating. Again, i wrote, that i always keep an eye on him, then i soak him, so i make sure, that water is always warm. I know, that i'm not an ideal keeper of tortoise, but i'm trying. I have been reading this forum for a long time, so most things, that you have mentioned - i know. But i think, this is not the reason, why he stopped pooping or urinating.

 

[COmtnLady]

Did the last vet visit, or the last series of vet visits, say anything about his kidney function? How long ago was he diagnosed and why did you take him to visit the vet then? Did they say what caused it? When kidneys shut down, they don't process the urine anymore. Is it possible his kidney disease has gotten to the point that his kidneys are not working anymore? Tell us everything you know about his condition.


You are NOT a bad keeper. You are doing everything you can to help your little friend. Do not think badly of yourself, you are doing the best you can.



If what is wrong with him is not his kidneys shutting down, a closed enclosure would help to hold the humidity and heat in. If humidity is low even after doing that, there is something wrong with your enclosure set up (besides it being too small for a hatchling, and definitely way too small for an adult - an adult needs a minimum of 4ft by 8ft/122cm by 244cm). Tortoises need to be able to walk a lot to make their digestive systems work well, just like horses and many other animals including humans. Walking massages their insides and moves food through. If the bottom of your enclosure is water-proof you could make the lowest inch/2cm wet enough that water evaporates up through the top four-to-six inches of substrate. That should create enough consistent humidity. Adult Russians don't normally need that much humidity, but sick tortoises and very young ones do need it.

Your enclosure has a LOT of cubic inches/cm of air space and will not run low on oxygen if closed (it wouldn't even if it was sealed tighter than it is possible to actually do). Every time you open the top to feed, to take your tortoise out or put him back in, to change water, there is a huge exchange of air. Without a top to hold it in, all your heat and humidity will drift off into the room - heat rises and it will carry everything away with it.

Do you have the whole floor of his enclosure covered with paper so that there is nowhere that your tortoise can walk inside the enclosure that he could get off the paper? What about smell? Can you smell any excrement or urinary smells?


.

 

[er9m]

COmtnLady, thank you for help and kind words. I'm visiting vet for already 8 years i think. It is a very long period already. His kidney disease was diagnosed long time ago for about 6 years already. I think the reason of this mostly, because all of the years till that - he was living and roaming freely on my apartment. Sadly, but i didn't realise, that it will cause him such a disease. I wanted to give him as much freedom, as i could. Now, i hate myself for this. I have read, that last stage kidney failure is not about urine production, but it's because, that kidney doesn't filter waste anymore, with other symptoms like trembling, swelling, shortness of breath and so on. Moreover, his recent blood test was great. For now, all his terrarium is covered by underpads with no substrate. I was using different substrates like coco coir or orchid bark, but both of it he tried to eat, so i don't use it anymore. No urinary or excrement smells. I know, that terrarium is too small, but it's only for winter. In spring/summer/autumn i bring him outside to my private garden.

I wanted to make clear situation one more time: he did urinated after vet, but it happens only about every fourth day and not as much as it should be. Before vet - he didn't urinated and pooped at all. At vet he was urinating, pooping every second, third day and in proper amounts.

 

[COmtnLady]

Frequently, a tortoise that eats substrate is either not getting enough food, or not getting the right food. What have you usually fed him?


I don't have any other ideas. Let's see if someone else has an idea that might help.

@Yvonne G @Tom @zovick

 

[zovick]

Frequently, a tortoise that eats substrate is either not getting enough food, or not getting the right food. What have you usually fed him?


I don't have any other ideas. Let's see if someone else has an idea that might help.

@Yvonne G @Tom @zovick

The only ideas I have on this situation were already presented in Post #11.

 

[Tom]

I have some input...

1. If the tortoise was urinating in the soak water, which is what they usually do, you will not see it. A well hydrated tortoise, such as yours @er9m , will not produce urates and will urinate clear. It can't be distinguished from the water.

2. No food going in = no poop coming out. Your tortoise can't poop if you aren't putting enough high fiber foods into him. He needs to eat every day. Your soaking routine, along with the correct enclosure parameters will help to keep food moving along in the GI tract. Try to feed mostly green weeds, leaves, and flowers of the right types from outside. If you must use grocery store greens, add in the correct amendments. I will leave a thread explaining that at the end of this post.

3. 30% humidity is much too low. Your humidity is too low in part because you don't have substrate. He's eating the substrate because he isn't being fed and cared for correctly. All of these problems are related. I would put him on a thick hand packed layer of damp coco coir. When you make this change, scatter a whole bunch of his favorite foods all over the enclosure. I do this with hatchlings when I move them into their first enclosure. They can't take two steps on their new substrate without running into food. Keep this up for a few days.

The heating and lighting all need to be contained inside your closed chamber. These chambers are not air tight and plenty of oxygen will flow. It does not need to be 90% for an adult Russian, but 50-70% would be good in your case.

4. As has been said, they cannot digest their food, and their internal systems cannot function properly without the correct temperatures. 20-21C is fine for the over night low, but ambient during the day should rise to around 26-27C, with the basking area directly under the bulb reaching 37C all day long for 12-14 hours. It will be near impossible, and also extremely desiccating, to try to maintain these temperatures and humidity with an open topped enclosure. You need a closed chamber with the heating and lighting inside.

5. Along with the heat you need to correct lighting and UV. Here is a breakdown of the four heating and lighting essentials:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Fix all of these things, and your tortoise should recover and live for many more years. More info here, and questions are welcome:

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[er9m]

Frequently, a tortoise that eats substrate is either not getting enough food, or not getting the right food. What have you usually fed him?


I don't have any other ideas. Let's see if someone else has an idea that might help.

@Yvonne G @Tom @zovick

When i get food from outside (spring/summer/winter) - i'm feeding him dandelions, clovers, plantains, hawkbits, hawk's-beards, cat's ears, mouse-ear hawkweeds and some others which name i don't remember right now. When in winter from shop, i feed him rucola, escarole, lamb's lettuce, romaine, cucumber, zucchini, mazuri, radicchio, wheat grass and a little more. It was not always that much, but a few years ago i started to add a lot to this list.

 

[er9m]

Tom, thanks for helping. I'll try to run through your answer with my remarks:

1. If the tortoise was urinating in the soak water, which is what they usually do, you will not see it. A well hydrated tortoise, such as yours @er9m , will not produce urates and will urinate clear. It can't be distinguished from the water.

2. No food going in = no poop coming out. Your tortoise can't poop if you aren't putting enough high fiber foods into him. He needs to eat every day. Your soaking routine, along with the correct enclosure parameters will help to keep food moving along in the GI tract. Try to feed mostly green weeds, leaves, and flowers of the right types from outside. If you must use grocery store greens, add in the correct amendments. I will leave a thread explaining that at the end of this post.

Ok, so as i said before, i give him food, but now only each third day, because he is getting little by little "puffed". It's mostly because of urine which is not going out properly and as i soak him, and feed him - he's getting weight more and more. I don't want to get his bladder to blow. Or i try to explain in differrent way: if i do not feed him as you say, or i do not see his urine in water or somewhere else - why his weight is growing and why he is getting "puffed"?

3. 30% humidity is much too low. Your humidity is too low in part because you don't have substrate. He's eating the substrate because he isn't being fed and cared for correctly. All of these problems are related. I would put him on a thick hand packed layer of damp coco coir. When you make this change, scatter a whole bunch of his favorite foods all over the enclosure. I do this with hatchlings when I move them into their first enclosure. They can't take two steps on their new substrate without running into food. Keep this up for a few days.

The heating and lighting all need to be contained inside your closed chamber. These chambers are not air tight and plenty of oxygen will flow. It does not need to be 90% for an adult Russian, but 50-70% would be good in your case.

I agree with you and with others, that is what i struggling - to get right humidity and temperature, but i hardly can. Ok, so my terrarium is this: https://exo-terra.com/products/terrariums/pro-terrariums/pro-terrarium-large-wide/ . I can only buy additional lamp fixture to close it's half top. Or maybe other ideas, how to close the top of this terrarium? Because buying a new one will be complicated. And also i just took a look, what i can find in other stores: mostly all terrariums have such a top with grills/ventilation. So are they all not suitable? So why they are producing it?

I will stop here and won't go further to lightning, because i need some explanations about terrarium and what i wrote above.

 

[Tom]

Tom, thanks for helping. I'll try to run through your answer with my remarks:


Ok, so as i said before, i give him food, but now only each third day, because he is getting little by little "puffed". It's mostly because of urine which is not going out properly and as i soak him, and feed him - he's getting weight more and more. I don't want to get his bladder to blow. Or i try to explain in differrent way: if i do not feed him as you say, or i do not see his urine in water or somewhere else - why his weight is growing and why he is getting "puffed"?



I agree with you and with others, that is what i struggling - to get right humidity and temperature, but i hardly can. Ok, so my terrarium is this: https://exo-terra.com/products/terrariums/pro-terrariums/pro-terrarium-large-wide/ . I can only buy additional lamp fixture to close it's half top. Or maybe other ideas, how to close the top of this terrarium? Because buying a new one will be complicated. And also i just took a look, what i can find in other stores: mostly all terrariums have such a top with grills/ventilation. So are they all not suitable? So why they are producing it?

I will stop here and won't go further to lightning, because i need some explanations about terrarium and what i wrote above.

"Getting puffed" is most likely a phenomenon called edema. There can be many causes of edema, but feeding your tortoise as much of the right foods as it wants every day is not one of those causes.

The tortoise's bladder will not "blow", as you say. If there was some sort of obstruction to the ureters or the cloaca, your vet would have seen and noted this.

That enclosure is wayyyyy too small for an adult Russian. 4 of them put together is too small for an adult Russian. You need something around 4x8 feet or 122x244cm. Like the size of a sheet of plywood. Few people sell anything this size. Most people make their own. I don't know where in the EU you are, but there is a company in the UK called Southdown Aquatics, and they make large enclosures like this at a reasonable price.

Why do they make enclosures like the one you bought if they aren't suitable for your tortoise? Several reasons; 1. These enclosures ARE suitable for many pet reptiles. A young bearded dragon or an adult leopard gecko would do very well in the enclosure you have. Like wise, many snakes and other lizards would do well. 2. Most people are totally ignorant of correct tortoise care. They are still using, following, and recommending decades old, often repeated, incorrect husbandry practices. 3. Because people keep buying them.

The only time an open topped enclosure works is if the entire room is the correct humidity and temperature is what you are trying to achieve inside the enclosure. In other words, an open topped enclosure is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof on it. Its just physics. It can't work.

Keeping a tortoise confined in a small enclosure limits their locomotion. Much like a horse, locomotion is necessary for a tortoise to pass food through the GI tract and for them to function normally. It is also my observation/opinion that confining tortoises to small enclosures also negatively affects their mood, appetite, and causes them stress. Too much stress.

To recap:
1. Get your tortoise into a large closed chamber.
2. Get the temperatures and humidity right.
3. Get some substrate under your tortoise.
4. Keep soaking.
5. Feed lots of the correct foods every day.

Torotises are dependent on their environment to function and remain healthy. The environment you are providing is not correct and is a likely reason, or contributing reason, for your problems. Correct the environment and husbandry practices, and the tortoise will get better and stay better.

 

[er9m]

"Getting puffed" is most likely a phenomenon called edema. There can be many causes of edema, but feeding your tortoise as much of the right foods as it wants every day is not one of those causes.

The tortoise's bladder will not "blow", as you say. If there was some sort of obstruction to the ureters or the cloaca, your vet would have seen and noted this.

It's not an edema. Tortoise is not swelling, but "blowing" little by little from the urine and food concentration. This all is pushing lungs and so on. There are no obstruction or some damage on bladder. It just can blow, because it's streching by itself and is being pushed by intestines because of food. When vet did ultrasound, endoscopy and x-rays, she saw it. It's all about kidney. Now he gained weight about 90 gramms again in about 12 days. This is primary thing, what i'm concerned about and stopping me from giving plenty amount of food every day. I know, that my tortoise keeping conditions are way far from ideal and i'll try to change it. But it will take a lot time only to find proper terrarium (i live in Lithuania and UK is not an option for getting a terrarium). I don't talk about other things like lighting and so on. My tortoise Do NOT have such time right now. Thanks for provided information - I have read all of it and it just blowing up my mind right now, because a lot questions have to be answered. Still don't understand, why it's happening, because as i wrote before, i haven't changed anything since a long time and if (for example) lighting or low living space was so bad, why all these symptoms appeared right know and how vet did such a progress?

 

[COmtnLady]

The word you are using, "blowing", is not conveying any accurate picture. Do you mean "Rupture" (where there is a break in the wall of a blood vessel or intestine), or "swelling" (where some body part expands until it breaks)? Its tricky to be clear in meaning with the language differences, but you've done very well most of the time. Please define "blowing" for us, or use a different word. I don't understand what you want it to mean.

why all these symptoms appeared right know and how vet did such a progress?

The symptoms have been building up all along, it has just taken this long to accumulate to the point of becoming life-threatening.

The vet put him into completely different conditions. I still say your tortoise needs it to be warmer and more humid until he's back to his normal self, however, as Tom said in his answer, he also needs to walk a lot and your terrarium isn't big enough. Now he is sick and in danger. You said he isn't moving as much when you soak him, see if you can get him to exercise more in the soaks, too.

 

[er9m]

He's becoming like "fat". Is this word is appropriate?

 

[COmtnLady]

How do you know it is not edema? Edema looks fat or puffy. It is fluid retention, which also happens when kidneys stop working. This may be a problem that won't fix.

Call your Vet and explain what you are seeing. Ask if you should take him back to see the Vet.



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[EppsDynasty]

I’m late but here goes……
Please take this as constructive criticism NOT an attack. As I read this I consistently see you trying to argue or make your point even though you are being given advice from others who are far more knowledgeable. Until you let go of your own personal opinions and listen this problem will persist. Oil? A big NO NO in my book. Vibrator? Another big NO NO. that vibrator your vet uses is miserable for your tort, put a vibrator on one of your bones and tape it there……don’t feel so good does it. Doing this vibrator thing only makes your tort stressed and forces it to ‘clinch’ its muscles in discomfort. CAR RIDES …
I REPEAT, CAR RIDES. if this tort doesn’t feel comfort or feel safe nothing is going to change.
You can either tell all theses people how there wrong, or open your mind and try new things.

I am writing this because I care about your torts feelings more than yours. Sorry if this is offensive it’s just how my heart works

 

[MissRisa]

It's not an edema. Tortoise is not swelling, but "blowing" little by little from the urine and food concentration. This all is pushing lungs and so on. There are no obstruction or some damage on bladder. It just can blow, because it's streching by itself and is being pushed by intestines because of food. When vet did ultrasound, endoscopy and x-rays, she saw it. It's all about kidney. Now he gained weight about 90 gramms again in about 12 days. This is primary thing, what i'm concerned about and stopping me from giving plenty amount of food every day. I know, that my tortoise keeping conditions are way far from ideal and i'll try to change it. But it will take a lot time only to find proper terrarium (i live in Lithuania and UK is not an option for getting a terrarium). I don't talk about other things like lighting and so on. My tortoise Do NOT have such time right now. Thanks for provided information - I have read all of it and it just blowing up my mind right now, because a lot questions have to be answered. Still don't understand, why it's happening, because as i wrote before, i haven't changed anything since a long time and if (for example) lighting or low living space was so bad, why all these symptoms appeared right know and how vet did such a progress?

I hope this little bit helps.
You say you still don't understand why this is happening now and not earlier if it's the environment he's been kept in. - Nothing happens fast with a tortoise, they can be kept in bad conditions for decades and then finally the symptoms that maybe were there all along, building up little by little, are now huge and cannot be missed.
You also say how did the vet do so well? - you should ask your vet for exact conditions they kept your tortoise in while in hospital. Maybe they can provide you with a better idea of what all went into getting your tort to pass urine and food better while in their care.

My final note, is that nothing lasts forever, lights, equipment, electronics all fail eventually so even if you haven't changed anything in a while, doesn't mean it's still performing as it was when you first got it. So it might be time to refresh some things in your setup.