Tortoise only wants to be fed by hand? SOLVED

[Alex77]

Hi,
This is a bit of an odd question. My young tortoise suddenly will only eat when I feed him/her by hand and I wonder if it has any deeper significance, or if its just a harmless personal quirk. I enjoy doing it but it is a little weird, because the tort used to prefer eating out of his/her dish and now ignores everything in the dish unless I pick it up and feed it to him/her. Haven't used any unusual cleaning stuff on the dish lately either. I did move the Tort to a bigger tank recently though. I feed him/her a mix of grass, salad and cucumber daily, about half a palm full. She/he used to gobble all this up but is eating a lot less and only when hand-fed, as I said.

Any thoughts?

 

[Yvonne G]

In my opinion, a tortoise can't get the amount of food it needs to grow strong and healthy if only eating hand-fed foods. He needs to 'graze' or 'browse' throughout the day. Put the food out, then leave him alone. He'll eventually eat.

Please read the care sheet for your species of tortoise and make adjustments to the type and amount of food your are feeding. Cucumber isn't one of the items on the menu.

 

[Tom]

Which species? What size tort? What are your four temps? What size was the old and what size is the new enclosure? Substrate?

 

[Alex77]

Yeah that's what I was worried about Yvonne. Do you know any other reasons tortoises might eat very little or avoid dish foods tho?

As for cucumber I've seen it listed on lots of sites as ok. What is the problem with it, health wise?

 

[Alex77]

Mediterranean, approx 2 years (10 cm), coco coir & potting soil, 26 degrees and 38 degrees. 2 feet by 3 feet enclosure

Which species? What size tort? What are your four temps? What size was the old and what size is the new enclosure? Substrate?[/Mediterranean

 

[Tom]

Does it cool down at night? If not it should.

A pic might help us to give more insight.

Are you using any UV bulbs? Coil type perhaps?

The problem with cucumber is that it is low in fiber and nutrition. When they eat cucumber they are filling their stomach with water, basically, instead of good stuff. Its not that cucumber is harmful, its that other better stuff should be in their stomach.

How often do you soak?

How long has the tortoise been in this new enclosure and did this behavior start on day one in the new enclosure, or did it take some time to set in?

 

[Alex77]

Hi Tom, thanks for that info. The behaviour actually started to be noticeable a couple of days before I moved the tort. One of the reasons I moved the tort was that s/he wasn't eating very much, just constantly trying to escape or else sleeping. The tort was also disinterested in food that was not offered by hand, during those last few days before I moved it.

In the new home (which is identical in set-up to the last one, only bigger) the tort has stopped trying to escape but it still sleeps a lot and its appetite has almost vanished (except when I hold the food in front of its face). N.B. I've only had this tort for one month. Before that s/he was in a pet shop for at least 2 years. I don't know if that is important or not.

I have a Uv coil but haven't been using it for the new table because it's next to a window that gets 12 hours daylight. Before that, the tort table was in a darker position, so I had the UVB light on 12 hours a day. I am also bathing the tort daily and when bathing it, I leave it under the UVB light so it gets 15 mins with the bulb daily, as well as 12 hrs daylight.

The only other thing that i think may be causing this disinterest in eating is the fact that I was previously feeding the tort reptile food sticks, until I read that they are not very good for tortoises as a staple. I recently switched the tort to a diet made up entirely of grass/salad. Could it be that the tort is just missing his/her favourite food? S/he used to go crazy for those reptile sticks... was turning into a little addict, lol!

No pics are possible as I don't have any of the appropriate media accounts, But the tort has a healthy shell and pretty average energy levels when awake. Lots of basking going on. Some pink staining at the back rim of the shell. Tort looks a bit podgy or maybe swollen. but i have seen that condition in turtles that are kept in a small space - like a pet shop tank - for too long.

 

[Alex77]

Just an update: took the tort to the vet today and found out that s/he has very low calcium in his/her bones. The reason why it was not moving around much and sleeping all day was because the poor little guy/gal was in pain. I was surprised becuase I've been giving my tort calcium (cuttlebone dust) every day on its food in the month since I bought it, but the deficiency was so extreme that it was almost definitely caused by poor diet at the pet store where I got it. Shocking, since I live in germany and tortoise sellers here are some of the most tightly-regulated in Europe. The other problem was that the tortoise's lungs were not filling to capacity, probably due to constipation, which I sort of suspected might be the case. But the calcium issue I'd never have guessed. Moral of the story: no one but the vet would have been able to figure out the problem so even though it was incredibly expensive, I'm glad I went!

Another surprise: the vet says NOT to use coco coir with my tortoise (graeca Mediterranean) because it is causing the constipation. This fact might interest other new tortoise owners, since a mix of coco coir and soil was recommended by every source I checked. (For some reason my tort always gets it mixed with his/her food and eats it though, which is the main problem - if your tort isn't eating it, it might be okay)

 

[Tom]

You have some serious issues going on. Tortoises do not normally eat the coir, and so it does not cause constipation most of the time. I once had some sick babies and they did eat the coir. I have no idea why, but they were eating the coir instead of their food. They were infected with cryptosporidia (confirmed through necropsy) and I sent them back to the breeder.

Your food issue could be due to the coil bulb. Those can damage reptile eyes and eventually blind them. This would explain the lethargy too.

Understand that unless that window is open with no screen, your tortoise is not getting any UV from being near that window. Also be very careful that the enclosure doesn't over heat. This happens commonly over here.

All the calcium in the world will do your tortoise no good with out UV which they use to make D3. You are fortunate in Germany to have the Solar Raptor brand of UV bulbs. These are the best I have seen, but we have a tough time getting them over here. I would get your tortoise under one of those bulb, or in real direct sunshine ASAP.

Also calcium should not be supplemented every day. It interferes with the absorption of other important trace element and nutrients, which might be another contributing factor in your substrate eating behavior. A little pinch of calcium twice a week should be plenty.

You don't need accounts to upload pics. Go to http://tinypic.com and upload any size photo from any device. Then copy/paste the IMG code into your forum post. It is very simple and requires no account or hassle. Just a free easy to use site.

Daily soaks will help your tortoise with several of its issues. I hope things get back on track for you soon.

 

[Alex77]

The tort eats the coir because it gets mixed up with the food, as I said above. Tort shows no interest in it on its own.

While I appreciate your advice on calcium, I am following the vets advice to supplement daily. there seems no point in paying a ton of money to a reptile expert to diagnose a tort if I am just going to ignore his opinion, no?

He also recommends sunshine and calcium injections and tort will get a full parasite investigation ASAP. So it is in good hands, don't worry. Also: the temp is being checked half a dozen times a day - I'm quite obsessive lol!

 

[Tom]

Good luck and please keep us posted. Thank you for sharing and we will all learn from how this turns out.

 

[Alex77]

Okay cheers!

I believe the daily calcium supplementation is only supposed to be short term. The bones looked to be in poor condition... The vet was worried cos they were almost invisible on the x-ray. This is a product of months, not days or weeks, of poor lighting/nutrition. I think he's focussing on it cos its critical.

Can I upload vids to tinypic? The video I shot shows more of my tort than any photo I've got...

 

[WillTort2]

I believe the sunshine will be the long term key for your torts recovery.

I would advise upgrading your bulb and getting rid of the compact fluorescent coil bulb.

Also, soaking your tort in luke warm water for about 20 minutes per day for a week should help with the constipation and rehydration. Search this forum for instructions.

Good luck.

 

[Yvonne G]

I hope you paid attention to what Tom said about the coil shaped bulb. It is VERY IMPORTANT, and fits your tortoise's problem to a T.

 

[Tom]

While I appreciate your advice on calcium, I am following the vets advice to supplement daily. there seems no point in paying a ton of money to a reptile expert to diagnose a tort if I am just going to ignore his opinion, no?

I feel the need to come back and address this. I let it go at first, but that might not be in the best interest of your tort, or the tortoises of people reading this.

Many vet have no clue about tortoises, or even reptiles in general. There are good ones, but most of them retreat to the back, read out of a textbook, and then step back into the room and dispense "expert" advice in a very confident tone. I have seen this many times and many torts suffered and died for their ignorance and pride. My career, and my wife's career too, has me in contact with many vets on a regular basis. Many of them are friends, I'm happy to say.

The point is: You know how you learn about tortoises? You raise and care for them. For decades. You make mistakes and learn from them. You learn (hopefully) from observing the mistakes of others. You know how many semesters vets get on tortoise care in vet school? Not one. Zero. If YOUR vet has been keeping his/her own tortoises for years, and has lots of experience, then that is great. Have you asked? Which species does your vet keep and for how long? Even though I know dozens of vets, some are really good too, I would not call a one of them for tortoise advice. (We have a couple of vets that are actual tortoise keepers that are here on this forum that would be an obvious exception, but I don't see either of them on a regular basis.) I would call one of many tortoise keepers that I know. In fact, those vet friends that I previously spoke of call ME when they have a perplexing tortoise case, and so far we've been able to figure out each one.

So to adress your question in the quote above: Following someone's advice because you paid them money and they earned a title in school, is absolutely pointless if the person is not a subject matter expert, which most vets are not. If yours is, then you are lucky to have found him/her. Further, new information and new techniques are constantly being discovered and refined. This forum is at the forefront of that wave. WE are at the forefront of that wave. Many old time tortoise keepers have not kept up, and their tortoises suffer for it. If your vet IS an experienced tort keeper, have they kept up on their continuing education? Do they have good results to show for their efforts? Finally, there are often differences of opinion on how things should be done, based on different experiences, or differing levels of ignorance. There is a lot for a new keeper to figure out when taking advice.

I hope that we are able to help you and that you can gain from the collective experience shared by the fantastic members of this forum. Most of us are not charging you money, and we don't have a series of letter behind our names, but that doesn't mean we don't know how to care for tortoises better than someone who doesn't even keep them.

 

[Alex77]

Hi Tom,
Is the advice given really that bad though? Far as I can tell 95% of the vets advice fits with what you and all the others have said to a T. It almost sounds like you are blowing this one point out of proportion (perhaps out of some sense of wounded pride)? If you look at my post after the one you're referencing, you'll see that I have been given no instructions or intentions to feed calcium daily for the rest of the tortoises life. Only short term. I don't see the harm in following this vets advice in the *short term* for a critical situation... and so far, you've honestly not given me much of an argument for doing otherwise. I would be open to it if you offered me one though.

So before you reply I'd ask again: is this calcium daily diet a problem in the short term... worse than the problem of a worsening calcium deficiency?

If so i will ask the vet about it, of course. He is the only vet in town recommended by Tortoise Trust though, so I object to your inference that I'm being ignorant by trusting his advice. I'm doing the best I can in a difficult situation.

 

[Alex77]

I hope you paid attention to what Tom said about the coil shaped bulb. It is VERY IMPORTANT, and fits your tortoise's problem to a T.

Yes. Of course. I hope you have also paid attention to what I've written, in the sense that this is a *brand new pet* and the coil which I've been using for less than a month could not possibly be to blame for its current illness , which took months if living in a pet shop to occur.

In my home, The tort has only spent 5 days in its new natural-light-only enclosure... it has now been moved back to a UVB lit enclosure... I also have been putting it on the balcony from day 1 whenever it's sunny... For which I was *also* told off, by others who feel that a tort should constantly be at 35 degrees. Sigh.

 

[Alex77]

"Further, new information and new techniques are constantly being discovered and refined. This forum is at the forefront of that wave. WE are at the forefront of that wave"

How do you expect that not to be confusing to a first timer though Tom? It's all well and good to be in the forefront but the info it has to be prioritized somehow. simply throwing doubt on every bit of knowledge new owners pick up cannot possibly be productive. It's kind of off-putting, in fact.

 

[Yvonne G]

Believe me, I understand. So hard to know which person to listen too when we're all throwing our opinions at you wham, bam!

I think 95F all over the whole habitat is too hot. And its a very good thing to get the tortoise into real sunshine as much as possible. If you can get 3 or 4 hours a week of real sunshine there is no need for a UVB light...only a heat light.

 

[Yvonne G]

I know it sounds like we're all telling you what to do, but what you have to do is learn what the tortoise needs to grow healthy and strong. Then take all our info and pick and choose what will give you what the tortoise needs. Its different for every climate and household. There is no one-size-fits-all for tortoise-keeping. You have to modify in order to provide what's needed.