Tortoise shell - Indian star

[Bola & Ian]

We got him just a few months old and even then he had pointed carapace. I sprinkle vitamins and calcium on his diet more than twice a week when I remember, nibbles on cuttlefish, is sprinkled daily almost with water, left to soak in a warm bath once a week, bedding is a mixture of natural pinewood bark and coconut substrate. UV light and ceramic heat lamp on thermostat and timer. There's a water bowl big enough for him to sit half way into and he drinks from, a few rough stones scattered around for him to climb over and rub against and a ceramic pot for him to hide in.

Diet is mostly weeds, rose petals etc I give a varied diet and grasses when we get some, it's winter in the UK, so hay it is for now although I have never seen him eating it.

He weighs just over 512 grams 3 years old and a 5 inch under shell length.

What am I doing wrong people????

 

[Markw84]

Please read this thread at the top of this forum section. It will answer many of your questions.

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-star-tortoise.159167/

Compare that to the conditions you provide and then come back with your questions. The pyramiding your tortoise has is from conditions that are too dry. It also appears to be a bit worse the past 6 months or so. But your tortoise looks like it is doing quite well. 512 for a 3 year old is good, and in a "normal" growth range.

 

[Bola & Ian]

Thanks for your reply, I've read the article and I increased the water bowl in his tank, everything else we are doing but still doesn't answer my question as to why he's turned out like so when he's brother under the same conditions has a smooth shell, and had never had lumps. When we bought them the breeder said the rough shell indicated he was male and females tend to be more smooth but now I know better. He's never had a smooth shell is what am trying to get at.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Thanks for your reply, I've read the article and I increased the water bowl in his tank, everything else we are doing but still doesn't answer my question as to why he's turned out like so when he's brother under the same conditions has a smooth shell, and had never had lumps. When we bought them the breeder said the rough shell indicated he was male and females tend to be more smooth but now I know better. He's never had a smooth shell is what am trying to get at.

What you see there is pyramiding. It is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry when scutes start growing vertically instead of horizontally. There is no way to reverse pyramiding, but you can do your best to stop it from continuing.
That means trying to up humidity, soaking more frequently, and wetting the shell a few times a day.
I think this would be an interesting read -http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Turtles-Tortoises/Turtle-Care/Pyramiding-in-Tortoises/

 

[Bambam1989]

You may be seeing a side effect of bullying if the two torts are kept in the same enclosure.
Let me try and explain. Torts do not do well in a one on one situation in most cases. A dominant tort will often bully the other, this usually begins as mental bullying that is easy to overlook. Following, hogging the humid hide, possibly laying on top of food to make it hard for the other to eat, and staring are all bullying. The subordinate tort tries to avoid the dominant and may spend less time in the humid hide, more time under the basking light which slowly dries out the shell.
Other keepers may disagree but that is my theory.

 

[TechnoCheese]

You may be seeing a side effect of bullying if the two torts are kept in the same enclosure.
Let me try and explain. Torts do not do well in a one on one situation in most cases. A dominant tort will often bully the other, this usually begins as mental bullying that is easy to overlook. Following, hogging the humid hide, possibly laying on top of food to make it hard for the other to eat, and staring are all bullying. The subordinate tort tries to avoid the dominant and may spend less time in the humid hide, more time under the basking light which slowly dries out the shell.
Other keepers may disagree but that is my theory.

I agree, this is most likely why one is doing well and the other is not. Even if that isn’t the case, it would be best if you separated them.

 

[Markw84]

Thanks for your reply, I've read the article and I increased the water bowl in his tank, everything else we are doing but still doesn't answer my question as to why he's turned out like so when he's brother under the same conditions has a smooth shell, and had never had lumps. When we bought them the breeder said the rough shell indicated he was male and females tend to be more smooth but now I know better. He's never had a smooth shell is what am trying to get at.

Could we see a picture of the enclosure and the lighting setup? Also a picture of the other tortoise?
Do you have a good hygrometer at tortoise level in the enclosure? I see hay in the picture. If the humidity was high enough to prevent pyramiding the hay would be molding within a day or two. How big is their enclosure? What type of UVB bulb/light do you have. What is the temperatures in the enclosure? Min temp at the coldest corner, temperature under the basking area, average daytime temp and overnight lowest temp? How long are the lights on each day?

 

[TechnoCheese]

If I’m not mistaken, I believe that pine chips are toxic to tortoises, and should be removed.

 

[Bola & Ian]

Hi all, I've taken into action everything you've said with regards to changing the pine bark, in my defence I bought it online and it said it was specially treated for reptiles but I guess I know better now, I've also introduced an hygrometer and daily misting rather than on occasion as previously.

I divided the tank into two to separate them out, hence why the ceramic lamps were positioned in the middle of the tank (leaving in current position as he seems happier)...as discussed in my previous threads until we were able to sell one off...which we have.

I've changed the substrate to soil and orchid bark (very expensive!).

As per the temperature we have the ceramic lamps on a señor timer thing so it doesn't fall below a certain degree, there's a hygrometer and a thermometer just to keep onto of it.

 

[Markw84]

Thanks for your reply, I've read the article and I increased the water bowl in his tank, everything else we are doing .

Hi all, I've taken into action everything you've said .

Thanks for the picture of the enclosure. I does give much more to work with in giving suggestions. You still have not answered some very important questions in order to help you. If you are still interested in help and suggestions, we need more information. As you can see from both your replies so far, you seem quite defensive and insist you have done everything. Yet, there is still much you have not answered and from the picture, I can see is not done at all that is quite basic in the care sheet I first directed you to for answers. So please, do not be defensive, as that will block new information. It is not your fault if you do not have good information available to make your choices. But please be open now, to the very information you are seeking.

I love that you have a closed chamber. It is quite short and I see a problem mounting lights and heat at a proper distance.
You did install a hygrometer. What is it telling you? What is the humidity night and day? From your picture, it still looks dry. If it were close to 80% you would not be able to see in the windows as they would be covered in condensation.
I do no see a basking light. Stars are baskers and like a hot basking spot. They associate bright light with heat and will choose to bask there. A low wattage incandescent bulb would work well.
What type of fluorescent is that in the enclosure. Is it a UVB reptile bulb? What brand and strength? The distance above tortoise carapace is important and dependent upon type. The type of light it puts out has a big effect on overall health so knowing the exact type is important for me to help you.
You CHE's are quite close to where the tortoise will get. That can be quite desiccating on the carapace - which is a direct influencer of pyramiding. CHE's are best to be mounted higher up and gradually heat the entire enclosure, not create a hot spot right next to it.
What are the temperatures? Hottest spot? Overall ambient daytime? Ambient nighttime? Coldest spot of the enclosure? In the hide?
I see no plants in the enclosure and it looks quite barren. Stress is one of the biggest problems with captive tortoises. It suppresses the immune system, inhibitys growth, and causes a release of hormones that block mineral absorption and it inhibits bone growth. As in the care sheet I linked, I believe giving a tortoise as natural a hiding area as possible is key to overall health. Stars hide in grassy clumps, under bushes, in the banks next to streams, under leaf litter. That is where you will find a star in the wild 95% of the time. Give your tortoise some hides like that.
You have a beautiful tortoise and I am so glad you are now doing everything you can to be sure it thrives!!

To give you some ideas... Here's a picture of one of my star enclosures and another picture of how my stars spend their time when resting.

 

[Bola & Ian]

I do apologise if my response came as being evasive, this was not my intention, I said what I knew and left the set up and technical bits to the husband to work out so he knew the details. I came here for help so do forgive me.

So to answer you questions specifically:

Hygrometer reads 60 when I don't spray (night time also) and over 80 when I do that I can't see through. The issue I find with keeping the humidity this high is that it requires constant misting, the right substrate, a big enough water source. Which I think I've achieved?

Basking light, we've gone with a ceramic lamp as this was recommended from the breeder and most forums said it was most preferred option given we need the heat to be on 24/7. This is controlled by a thermostat and it has a minimum and maximum temperature ( I don't know the exact figures) I don't know what CHEs are but I guessed this is the heat source?

The bulb is the UVB reptile type which we change every 6 months to keep it's efficiency. This is set on a timer from 8 to 4pm in UK winter and 7 to 6pm I think in summer. I adjust the timer to sync with daylight but ensure he gets a full 8 hours regardless of the season. This is 30 cm from the ground and 42cm long.

One end is 35.6 degrees, middle is (hottest part which I'll provide later as it's currently reading 25 degrees) and in his cave it is 24 degrees. Please note this is a night time reading and temperatures vary depending on where they are in the heat life cycle (heat is thermostat controlled). He is currently located at the hottest part of the tank lol.

Thanks so very much for the pictures, the reason I took so long in replying was that I was sourcing the plants to place in his enclosure, I changed the substrate in the meantime, and because this is winter and there isn't much variety so I told myself especially in the garden centres, however with the use of tortoisetable.org I have ordered and bought some succulents, cacti and other plants which i will place in soon, going to get a mini trough just like yours. I very much love the hanging plants, I've got one which he doesn't like (peperomia prostrate) and two other plants still to come which I'll place in the hanging basket and in the tank.

 

[Bola & Ian]

I've added a mist machine to my vivarium and some plants, the machine is on a timer so as to maintain the humidity levels 24/7. The two flower posts have been moved out of the flower pot as i want him to be able to climb around the plants.