True or not?

[Evy]

Is alfalfa bad for tortoises because it's high protein according to this website


I think I read before that alfalfa was a great food for torts.

Thank you for your kind input




London my lovely Sulcata tortoise :0))

 

[Tom]

NOT true. Alfalfa is a great part of a varied tortoise diet.

In the past, and unfortunately this old myth is still perpetuated by some, it was thought that our captive pyramiding problem was caused by excessive amounts of protein in tortoise diets. We now know this is totally wrong. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry.

I've been growing my own alfalfa and feeding it to my tortoise herd for years. I only feed it once a week or so, and mixed in with lots of grass and weeds.

 

[Evy]

NOT true. Alfalfa is a great part of a varied tortoise diet.

In the past, and unfortunately this old myth is still perpetuated by some, it was thought that our captive pyramiding problem was caused by excessive amounts of protein in tortoise diets. We now know this is totally wrong. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry.

I've been growing my own alfalfa and feeding it to my tortoise herd for years. I only feed it once a week or so, and mixed in with lots of grass and weeds.

Thank you Tom, that's what I thought! I just wanted to make sure that I was not mistaking info.




London my lovely Sulcata tortoise :0))

 

[zenoandthetortoise]

Yeah, TortoiseTable has a pretty strong anti-protein bias. I like to crumble these over greens to add variety

 

[ascott]

I would not offer the high protein material more than once a week....while protein may not be the "sole" culprit for pyramiding, this is one of the species of tort that has a system that does not process well high amounts of protein....

 

[Dizisdalife]

Alfalfa is a legume. Other legumes include clovers, vetches, peas, beans, and birdsfoot trefoil. They all have about twice the protein levels (12 - 20%) as most grasses (6 - 10%). I have alfalfa as well as several clovers growing in my sulcata pen. They were included in a pasture seed mix I planted along with orchard grass, rye grass, and some others. I don't see my sulcata graze on the alfalfa like he does grass and weeds, but he does eat some and I think that is okay. The Mazuri that I feed him once or twice a week is higher in protein than the legumes. I am more concerned about how much Mazuri he gets than I am about how much alfalfa or clover he eats. I will say that as a plant the alfalfa and clover are doing better in this Southern California drought than many of the grasses are.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Bob has a pile of locally grown grass hay now, but I used to feed him alfalfa. It didn't hurt him...

 

[zenoandthetortoise]

I would not offer the high protein material more than once a week....while protein may not be the "sole" culprit for pyramiding, this is one of the species of tort that has a system that does not process well high amounts of protein....

I appreciate that this is your opinion, but what exactly is it based on? Is the once a week regime arbitrary? Furthermore, how are you defining "high amounts" of protein?

I offer counterpoints for your consideration:

1) Mazuri is labeled as 'not less than 15% protein', apparently derived from soybeans, as they are two of the first three ingredients. Fiber content is 'not more than 18%'.

See attached analysis of alfalfa hay by UC extension. Alfalfa averages 16.5% protein and 25% fiber. Seems like it compares very favorably. My understanding is that it is commonly accepted best practice to feed Mazuri multiple times per week. If so, the alfalfa protein threat would seem minimal.

2) check out the Ca/Ph ratio. Good stuff.

3) Alfalfa is a rare plant source of Vit D

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6326678/

So that's what I'm basing my opinion on, but I would welcome any additional information.

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

I wish Alfalfa grew here Or just in the yard lol! My tort would probably like it a lot!

 

[Tom]

I wish Alfalfa grew here Or just in the yard lol! My tort would probably like it a lot!

You can grow it anywhere. Grow it in pots or trays indoors in the middle of winter. I use this one:
http://www.groworganic.com/non-dormant-alfalfa-rhizocoated-lb.html

 

[Tom]

I would not offer the high protein material more than once a week....while protein may not be the "sole" culprit for pyramiding, this is one of the species of tort that has a system that does not process well high amounts of protein....

What makes you think sulcatas don't process "high amounts of protein" as well as other species? In the wild they frequently eat carrion according to the author and consultants who wrote "The Crying Tortoise". I've seen examples of them eating cat food with no ill effect. Not that I recommend that practice. The late great Bert Langerwerf used to feed his sulcatas bones and other "leavings" from his band saw after cutting up frozen turkeys for the Tegus. In my experience sulcatas are MORE tolerant of higher levels of protein than some other species. Richard Fife told me in a phone conversation that he thought the typical captive tortoise diet was some what protein deficient based on some of his observations.

I don't know Angela. We agree on most subjects (I'll be hibernating all my yearling russians this year. ), but I think you are off base with the above statement. Nothing I have seen demonstrates your assertion, and everything I've seen contradicts it. Sorry. I still totally dig you though!

 

[ascott]

Tom, I do still totally dig you...and there are some things that you and I will not agree on....and that alone makes no difference as to my appreciation for you and your individual studies...truly. However, if you compare a "meat" eating tort, lets say--Redfoot, just because it is a more "common place" species.....you must see my point? I have not had the luxury of living in the middle of Sulcata country for a substantial period of time (50 years or so, in my opinion, would be a safe parameter, a fair parameter so to speak)...and while I do agree that they have come across a dead carcass or two...that by no means would equate to a meat eater as a normal part of the diet....would you not agree? Is there not ample studies and research that show indeed the make up of a tortoise would lend to the understanding that their system is not equipped to have a meat diet as a normal every day item? Now, if you compare a sulcata to a meat eating tortoise or turtle...their systems are totally different in their need for protein....yes, every living thing (plants not being used here) has some requirement for protein....you yourself state that you offer a significant protein source at about once a week...right? Why do you monitor the intake to that measurement? You have to have a gut feeling to make the measurement that....I am not asking you to "agree" with me...but to understand that I am not too far out in left field here....I am on the playing field and am so because we are speaking of a sulcata....

I mean, I could feed a "non traditional" meat eater some dog food, some scraps and that tort will likely balance out their captive life with grazing and other leafy greens....would that be the desired diet though? I just have a feeling on that point we may be more in line that you lead on....

Tom, the awesome thing about two people is two opinions....and alot of times those opinions may be based on alot of the same facts, but being read differently....? Also, again, I have to emphasize, I do not believe that pyramiding is based solely on protein consumption--so that I believe we agree on....I simply do not believe, by the make up of the tortoise digestive system, that high levels of protein on a constant basis, is a beneficial behavior....

 

[ascott]

1) Mazuri is labeled as 'not less than 15% protein', apparently derived from soybeans, as they are two of the first three ingredients. Fiber content is 'not more than 18%'.

See, here is where I would say, correct....I would not offer mazuri to a sulcata as a prime part of their diet....just not necessary nor beneficial....I would however add it to their diet on a weekly basis..but would promote grazing and dark leafy greens as the majority.....

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

You can grow it anywhere. Grow it in pots or trays indoors in the middle of winter. I use this one:
http://www.groworganic.com/non-dormant-alfalfa-rhizocoated-lb.html

I've never seen it at a garden store... is it better to grow ones from online?

 

[Tom]

I've never seen it at a garden store... is it better to grow ones from online?

I don't know where else to get it. The one I linked works great. I've personally used it many times cut harvest after harvest off of the same patches and I highly recommend it.

 

[Tom]

However, if you compare a "meat" eating tort, lets say--Redfoot, just because it is a more "common place" species.....you must see my point?

I do see your point. Yes. But no one is suggesting feeding meat to a sulcata, although I don't think small amounts once in a while are harmful. The original question was about alfalfa, and your comment was about sulcatas not being able to process "high" levels of protein. I don't consider alfalfa and its plant based protein content as part of a mixed diet as "high". I think daily alfalfa, clover, or other legumes are fine as long as the tortoise is well hydrated and there is lots of high fiber weeds and grasses mixed in.

I would consider canned cat food, beef meatballs or something like that "high" protein, and THAT I would recommend against. In my experience with sulcatas they are perfectly capable of processing and handling the protein levels found in alfalfa, especially if its just a part of a varied diet.

 

[ascott]

What makes you think sulcatas don't process "high amounts of protein" as well as other species? In the wild they frequently eat carrion according to the author and consultants who wrote "The Crying Tortoise". I've seen examples of them eating cat food with no ill effect. Not that I recommend that practice. The late great Bert Langerwerf used to feed his sulcatas bones and other "leavings" from his band saw after cutting up frozen turkeys for the Tegus.

I do see your point. Yes. But no one is suggesting feeding meat to a sulcata, although I don't think small amounts once in a while are harmful. The original question was about alfalfa, and your comment was about sulcatas not being able to process "high" levels of protein

I can see the connection between what I expressed and your response Tom.