Tunisian Testudo Graeca, I'm worried about his shell

[ladyengineer]

Hi Everyone,

I'm pretty new to this forum, but I'm hoping someone can help me out with a question that's been nagging at me for a while now.

I've had my Tunisian Pegasus for nearly two years now. I got him as a baby from a breeder in Somerset here in the UK, in April 2013. I'm starting to worry that his shell appears to be developing a pyramided shape.

Before I got him I spent a bit of time talking to the breeder to make sure I'd be able to handle him. She advised Beech chips as substrate, with a basking spot and a UV striplight. He lives indoors and in the summer we go out for him to have a stomp in my garden in the sunshine. When I move house, I'm going to build him a secure outdoor Run for the summer months.

The breeder kept 5 adult Tunisians as well as rearing a clutch of babies each year. She advised that Tunisians don't like excess humidity, and that I should never mist Pegasus' house as it might make him ill, and would probably cause the beech chips to moulder anyway.

In general, Pegasus seems pretty happy, perky and healthy in general. He eats like a horse, seems to know me and enjoys stomping around my lounge of an evening. But as I mentioned, I'm worried about him developing a pyramided shell, and about the potential health implications thereof.

There is a bunch of contradictory information online about the causes of pyramiding, the potential links with metabolic bone disease and how I can help Pegasus to grow up with a healthy smooth shell. There aren't many vets around here who will deal with chelonia, and I have noticed that the Tunisian seems to be a rather underrepresented breed in captivity. There isn't much advice out there that could be specific to Tunisians, and the one thing everyone seems to agree on is that they're a sensitive breed and shouldn't be messed about too much.

I've been reading up on these forums, and the advice seems to be extra misting and bathing to help with their hydration levels, along with Nutrobal to help with calcium levels, which will apparently help Pegasus' shell grow much more smoothly, but my breeder specifically forbade misting, and I'm not sure how often to feed Nutrobal, which he currently gets every week or two, and he has cuttlefish bone to nibble on at all times.

Is there anyone who's kept Tunisians who can offer any advice? Pegasus is still young and I think now is the time to do something about this issue, if anything needs to be done, but due to the warnings of the sensitivity of the Tunisian breed I want to be sure I'm not going to make Pegasus ill by changing things when he seems to be otherwise healthy and happy...

I've attached some pics of Pegasus, his shell, his house and one of him being cute (his specialty).

Thanks to anyone who can offer advice!!

 

[Heather H]

Welcome. I'm new here to. There may be a care sheet. Under tortoise species. I know it's dangerous to let them walk around the house. This is a great forum and someone will give you great advice.

 

[lismar79]

Humidity is the key for smooth growth according to most everyone here on the forum.

 

[ladyengineer]

Welcome. I'm new here to. There may be a care sheet. Under tortoise species. I know it's dangerous to let them walk around the house. This is a great forum and someone will give you great advice.

Don't worry Hilary, he only walks around the living room when CLOSELY supervised! and he has to wear a ribbon so I don't lose him. He tolerates that!

I'm hoping someone can offer me some tips on keeping him hydrated safely for this species, since I was warned against misting and even told that daily soaks could cause him to pass his food too quick, before he has a chance to digest and get all the nutrients out of what he's eaten...

 

[Heather H]

What is the temp? Humidity of his enclosue?

 

[ladyengineer]

The cool end of his habitat is between 18-20C, with a basking spot that can get up to 40C, which he will sit under until he's warm before walking away from when he doesn't want the heat anymore. He's got a good heat gradient and loads of places to hide in the warm/tepid/cold areas. The spotlight he has is an Exo-Terra Solar glo, 125W (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Exo-Terra-P...UTF8&qid=1422832895&sr=8-1&keywords=solar+glo)

I used to have a lower power bulb for his basking spot, but he spent most of his time under it or near it and never walked around his house. I've tried several powers and types, but this one seems to be the one he likes best. I know that it might be considered a bit too hot for him? But he really is far happier with this one... I figure he knows what he likes and can easily get away from it if he wants to. What's your opinion?

As for humidity, I actually have no idea. The breeder never told me to monitor it, and just said that it should be kept low.

 

[Heather H]

Everything I have read says they need humidity. What are you feeding?

 

[russian/sulcata/tortoise]

pyramiding it caused by lack of humidity in a tortoises enclosure. replace the substrate with something that can be moist. cage humidity should be high.

 

[Heather H]

Please don't take offense in what we tell you. We only want to help. The water dish is a flip hazard, I use moist coco coir , moss and repti bark. I have terra cotta saucers for water, food and stuff. I keep living v e plants that are safe to eat. I am just setting up a new enclosure. Look through enclosure threads and care sheets. The floor is too cold for tortoises and even when watching something can happen. A member recently lost their baby due to an accident.

 

[Heather H]

I soak before feeding, I turn on daytime lights, do chores for an hour, give a soak, then feed .

 

[crimson_lotus]

You can't really soak your tortoise "too much" and it's okay for them to pass their food. If a tortoise is being kept in a dry environment, the soaks are 100% necessary. If they are too dry and dehydrated, they may develop stones that are really painful to pass.

I THINK I've read on this forum that the older methods of tortoise keeping was to keep them dry. This could be the reason why your breeder suggested this. However it is known like russian/sulcata/tortoise said that lack of humidity can cause pyramiding. I personally would change the substrate to something that can be moistened and monitor your humidity.

 

[crimson_lotus]

@HermanniChris will be able to help you, he wrote the care sheet and he is very knowledgeable about Greeks.

 

[juli11]

First of all it is dangerous for the tortoise when you let her walk on the floor! Not only because of the strong air. The floor is dirty and when you put here back in the terrarium she takes all the dirt with her.
I know this shell problem. I saw many people with this problem. Most of the time it is the humidity. Your tortoise comes from a dry habitat but she still needs in the first years a higher humidity and your substrate is not the best for keeping humidity. Try normal earth.. Otherwise it could be the wrong food what do feed?

 

[Heather H]

What kind of bulbs are you using? For heat, and uvb ?

 

[ladyengineer]

Hi all,

Don't worry, I'm not taking offense, it was just nightime in the UK and I had to go to sleep.

First off, answers to questions: Pegasus gets weeds from my garden, and I have a flowerbed full of tortoise safe plants in my garden. I grow extra food inside for when the weather is cold. I get the seeds here: http://www.shelledwarriorsshop.co.u...rent-plantsflowers-50g---free-post-3374-p.asp
His favorite food in the world is dandelion flowers when I can get them, if he sees a dandelion flower he will SPRINT for it and it doesn't last long. He never gets shop bought greens and never fruit (to the point that he doesn't even seem to know what to do with fruit when confronted with it.)

As for bulbs, the solar glo UVB combo bulb for heat and a UVB striplight which I change every six-eight months.

Thanks all for the advice, I have already read several of the threads on this subject and they all preach humidity, much as everyone here is doing. (I've already read those threads, though I thank those who have given the same advice.) However, All those threads relate to other tortoise species such as Russians, Hermanns and Sulcatas. The thing that worries me about this course of action is that as I mentioned, the Tunisian seems a pretty rare species in captivity. There are next to no care sheets (none on this forum either) and the few care sheets I HAVE found all agree that the Tunisian is a delicate and sensitive breed and many agree with the breeder I got Pegasus from in saying that they will not tolerate damp conditions. (Sources: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/tunisian.html and halfway down this page: http://www.thetortoiseshop.com/the-spur-thighed-group there are virtually no other care sheets that I've been able to find) None of those threads can say that this is a safe course of action for a Tunisian.

The main reason I started this thread was I was hoping someone with experience of the Tunisian breed could allay my fears or suggest a known safe course of action for Pegasus. I could never live with myself if I changed his substrate and kept him damp only for him to get sick, just as the care sheets I've found warn that he will. I was really hoping that someone with a Tunisian could stand up and go "I've done this, my Tunisian reacted really well to it". I hope no one is upset by this, but they are all separate species: I used to keep a snake and I wouldn't expect someone who kept pythons say to know how to keep a corn snake.

I'll certainly try bathing him more for now, and if anyone knows anyone that keeps a Tunisian I'd LOVE to be reassured a bit...

 

[bouaboua]

I think you already got lots help so I'm here just to welcome you. Good to have you here! ! !

 

[WithLisa]

I know an owner of a tunisian. He uses dry loam as substrate, only a small corner is filled with moist coco coir, but keeps the air humidity at 70-80% (that's what it is in Tunisia) to prevent pyramiding and RTI.

 

[ladyengineer]

I know an owner of a tunisian. He uses dry loam as substrate, only a small corner is filled with moist coco coir, but keeps the air humidity at 70-80% (that's what it is in Tunisia) to prevent pyramiding and RTI.

WithLisa, thanks so much for your input. Is your friend on the forum, or would he mind being put in touch? I'd love some more advice on the best substrate to use. I'm totally up for changing it, and I want to get it right and keep Pegasus Healthy and Happy.

I've found a couple of possibilities online that I could order (for example, loam mix?? http://www.tortoisecentre.co.uk/MoreDetails_50135_Habistat-Tortoise-Substrate.aspx), but I'd love to be able to check, and if your friend has something going that's working, I'd love to replicate what he's got!

 

[WithLisa]

I don't think he is on the forum, as far as I know his English is not so good but I can ask him if his breeder has a care sheet. He lives in an area with loamy soil, so he can just take it from his garden (he gave me some to build a loamy corner for my Hermann's ).

 

[HermanniChris]

Your tortoise is suffering from a lack of sufficient humidity levels. Regardless of the fact that Tunisian graeca come from harsh, arid habitats, they as babies will do exactly what all other tortoises do. This means they hide. They burrow, they seek refuge and stay out of harm's way. Just because the tortoise is in captivity does not mean its instinct doesn't tell it to hide from predators. Baby tortoises subject themselves to high humidity levels at a high rate and if the substrate is holding a proper level of humidity, they will burrows and dig in. Your tortoise should be kept on a soil, coconut coir or peat moss mix or something very similar. It should be a sufficient depth to allow him to bury himself completely. Allowing only the top layer of substrate to stay dry is recommended for this subspecies of Greek tortoise. The rest of it should never be allowed to dry out. I like to give any of our baby tortoise species at least 4" to dig into. Occasional misting and sprays are 100%, without a doubt fine and suggested for these tortoises. Do not drench them, simply wet them down and their enclosure to raise the humidity level. In a situation such as this, the humidity and hydration must be increased. Even if diet and lighting are correct, the animal will continue to form humps or pyramid if it is not exposed to adequate humidity levels. I hope this helps.