My advice would be to listen to these people some of them have been working with torts for decades. So they have seen what happens if they are put together. They are just trying to help save you from learning the hard way.
Two in one enclosure
- Thread starter Fe-2470
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Why do you think they like company they don't Evan care for their young !
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Just so you understand @Fe-2470 the quick response may seem "strong" and maybe even hostile, It is not. Many folks here get quoted out of context or have had a bad experience and want you to benefit from their own learning curve.
Even the best of couples have their own space, let alone many hours a day apart. It's not like they would be sharing a house 24/7/365 , it's more like they would be sharing a one room studio, and never are out of sight of each other. It overwhelms even the most social of animals, let alone tortoises which are not so social.
So even if you are projecting onto them your own sensibilities (sorta not appropriate) think of all the nature shows regarding tortoises, they tend to get into tussles easy. It's as stressful as a never ending elevator ride with someone you don't know, who takes food you think is yours, or always sleeps where you think you should sleep (no negotiating, no communication other than physical action). Even the dominate one is stressed because that other one won't go away.
Even the best of couples have their own space, let alone many hours a day apart. It's not like they would be sharing a house 24/7/365 , it's more like they would be sharing a one room studio, and never are out of sight of each other. It overwhelms even the most social of animals, let alone tortoises which are not so social.
So even if you are projecting onto them your own sensibilities (sorta not appropriate) think of all the nature shows regarding tortoises, they tend to get into tussles easy. It's as stressful as a never ending elevator ride with someone you don't know, who takes food you think is yours, or always sleeps where you think you should sleep (no negotiating, no communication other than physical action). Even the dominate one is stressed because that other one won't go away.
Maitaimommy
Active Member
Agree. Pair of any gender is a bad idea! If you are a "collector" of Torts, it's best to have enough space to be able to separate them.
Maitaimommy
Active Member
Some people only learn the hard way
In any event, this site has helped me as I've learned so much in such a short amount of time. My RT is thriving
Robert Hutchens
New Member
@Tom ive kept two tortoises together multiple times and had no problems
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That you noticed . Sometimes it's looks , control of water , or food to start not just biting or ramming!
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Sometimes "Problems" are subtle to us. Sometimes they look playful or like affection to us.
I also kept tortoises as pairs before I found this forum. (It was actually before the internet.)
It is a fact learned by keepers for many decades that pairs should not be attempted. Even with Redfoot. The O.P. was referring to them.
A few things:
First, the vast majority of people don't recognize tortoise aggression when they see it. Following, cuddling, sleeping in the same spots, resting face to face, sitting on the food, etc… All of these things are subtle signs of tortoise aggression. Because our tortoises don't make facial expressions, and because they can't change their posture much due to the rigidity of their shells, most people don't see these signs. I don't know if you fall into this category, or not? You might think you didn't have problems, but based on my experience, I'd bet your tortoises disagree.
Second, If you put 1000 tortoises together in pairs, one pair or another will be the first to have a problem, and one pair will be the last. Some percentage will immediately set about trying to murder each other. Others will try to drive the submissive from their territory and impart tremendous chronic stress on both of them. Might some percentage survive this experiment long term? Certainly. Doesn't mean its good for them, or that the practice should be recommended.
Third, we have this argument on a regular basis here. Its your first time, but I've done it a dozen times. We had one member here with two red foots, like what the OP is talking about. Several of us advised her to separate them, and our advice was ignored. 6 weeks later she was back on the forum asking what to do because one tortoise had literally eaten the tail and most of the back leg of the other. And these were "peaceful" red foots. What would you say to this person? Do you wish to tell her how you kept two together before and you don't think it was a problem?
Last point is better stated by others than me. Please have a look at these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/
Looks like the photos are no longer viewable due to Photobucket changing their policies recently, but there was a pic of a young russian with an empty, bloody eye socket. A picture is worth a thousand words, so its a shame this pic is gone.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/
In conclusion, the best advice is to not keep two tortoises together. One of the first times I posted this topic in a debatable thread, one of the mods took offense and listed the pairs she had kept. We argued for a while and then she finally ended up agreeing with me that not keeping pairs was the best advice to give people, even though we can find examples of pairs that didn't outright kill each other. Someone edited the thread and deleted posts, so I doesn't read as it once did, but it was most entertaining in its original form. Argue argue argue for three or four pages, then: okay you're right…
Sometimes when I offer advice, I beg the question: "Ask me how I know this…" I too have kept pairs in the past. Several times. That is how I know what will happen, and that is why I advise people to not do it before they learn the same lessons I learned in the same way I learned them. The internet and this forum offer a fantastic way for people to not have to learn things the hard way. When I was learning these things there was no internet. There was the reptile guy at the pet shop and people sitting behind tables at reptile shows. Those people were learning the hard way, just like I was back in those days.
Your opinion is welcome. This forum is all about sharing experiences, but realize the experience behind some of the assertions here. Some of our members have kept hundreds or thousands of tortoises over several decades. Nobody knows everything, but some people have more experience to draw from than others.
Maitaimommy
Active Member
So true Tom! I had two RT's at one time and the older one started biting and harassing the younger one. I live in a small apartment in Maine and I was worried that I would come home to a bloody nightmare so I removed the older male who was the aggressor. It was a difficult decision that still haunts me as I was very attached to him.
Thank you for the post. I now listen to people on here as I am still learning about tortoise keeping!
Thank you for the post. I now listen to people on here as I am still learning about tortoise keeping!
Here is another old thread with some conversation on the subject:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/multiple-tortoises.137514/#post-1290156
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/multiple-tortoises.137514/#post-1290156
Robert Hutchens
New Member
@Tom I agree with you what I'm saying is that it's not certain death putting two tortoises together. It's just not recommended. Do you at least agree with that.
Maitaimommy
Active Member
Why are you trying so hard to convince Tom?
Putting two together is a very, very bad idea!
Putting two together is a very, very bad idea!
I have a Hermanns that is very territorial. I could never put another tortoise near her/ him. I wouldn't do it.
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If it's only about certain death then there is no trouble. Certain death is rare, but does happen. If we are talking about a long slow feebleness due to stress, then, no it's not okay. That is a false dichotomy, certain death versus It's okay.
Robert Hutchens
New Member
@Maitaimommy i respect Toms opinion deeply. He's extremely knowledgeable and has saved a lot of tortoises and owners. In my opinion if u have 2 separate enclosures available putting 2 together could potentially work.
Maitaimommy
Active Member
Well you are very persistent Robert Hutchens!
Absolutely! Putting two tortoises together is does not guarantee certain instantaneous death in every case. I will agree with that completely. In fact, that is rarely the case. Will touched on my biggest concern, which is the harder-to-see long-term chronic, and often fatal, stress that occurs over weeks, months or years.
Thank you for your polite persistence and continued tortoise conversation. I think when two people take the time to delve deeper and really sort out their positions on matters like this, more is learned by everyone.
