Underbite On A Sully?

[LParkey]

So ... I got my 2nd Sully (although I have rescued and rehomed several) almost a year ago at a reptile show. She was a baby when I got her. We spoke for almost an hour with the seller, who said she bred them herself, at great length and went over several questions all while closely examining all of her babies. She seemed knowledgeable in the care of a Sully as well as breeding and raising hatchlings. Well about a month after having her at home I noticed something wasn't right with her mouth, she was developing an underbite! I have NEVER seen this in a tort and became very curious as to the effect this may have on her throughout her life. Some of what I read stated it was due to inbreeding, some said it was MBD and other info stated that sometimes torts just have underbites. Everything, however, said I would probably have to trim her "beak" ... not something I'm excited about! My questions and concerns are how do I know when it's time to trim? I've read the beak trimming thread on here as to how, which I am somewhat comfortable trying as I had a parrot who's beak I had to trim routinely. But how do I know when its time? I contact the seller and asked her if she had ever run into this problem and if she had any knowledge of treatment, to which she responded that she knew nothing of it but would contact someone who was more experienced with torts and get back with me ... then never got back with me My concerns are I believe this is seriously effecting her food intake, which in turn is REALLY effecting her growth! She hasn't hardly grown at all since I purchased her. She still fits in the palm of my hand! Do I need to take her to a vet to figure out a plan of care? Is this going to be something that can be fixed? I chop her food pretty small as I have read that the bottom jaw is for chewing and the top is for ripping food. She eats, don't get me wrong, but seeing as she hasn't grown I believe it may not be enough. What do I do?! I don't have a picture now but will get one posted tomorrow (if I can remember how).

 

[wellington]

How much are you feeding and what are you feeding? All torts grow at their own pace. There are a few members that didn't see much growth on their Sullies until around 3-4 and then the big growth spirt hit and they are growing very large. Feed as much as she/he will eat, having some left over. Be sure to keep well hydrated and lots of sunshine when possible. If s/he does seem to have a hard time eating, piling it up will help. Also, feeding on a piece of slat or ruff flat rock will help to keep the beak trimmed naturally. Also, natural grazing will also help the beak.

 

[LParkey]

I feed a mixture of Timothy hay, grass, dandelions, hibiscus, collards, kale, turnip, squash, zucchini, tomatoes, berries, melons, Mazuri, etc. She and my other sully live in a tort table I built (5'x4'x1.5') outside in natural sun/shade as long as temps are above 65°. I usually would have them set up in an outside pin with much more room but have had trouble with the new neighbors dog this year and don't trust them being out of an enclosure. My other Sully is just over 1000g and my baby is just over 100g. I feed them 3 generous handfuls of whatever the mixture may be for the day and there's always a little left the next morning so I think I'm feeding enough. They eat out of a rock bowl. I've watched them for hours and they seem to get along well and have no issues with food agression. Matter of fact, my little Rayne seems a bit anxious when she's separated from my bigger Sunshine.

 

[mike taylor]

The bigger one is probably not letting the little one eat . So separate them and see what happens. They will bully even if you think they are getting along like peas and carrots . Sulcatas don't need the fruit or tomatoes. Hope this helps some .

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[LParkey]

The fruits and tomatoes are maybe 2x a month, only an occasional treat. I've watched them eat and haven't noticed any problems but I know that doesn't mean it isn't happening when my back is turned. I let my little eat seperately sometimes, so she gets her fill first. I had thought of seperating them but the only other enclosure I have would be a 40gal breeder tank or a 55gal tank. Feed them seperately or separate all together? I honestly don't believe them being together is the issue, I believe it's the underbite. They've only been together for the last 6 months. My concern is the underbite ... I need to post pictures but they are sleeping right now.

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These pictures are probably 4-7 months old. I'll get more tomorrow, as her beak is worse now.

 

[LParkey]

Ok these pictures were JUST taken. What do you all think of her underbite? The other picture is of her and my larger tort.

 

[wellington]

Wow, it sure is. I don't know if eating on a piece of slate or rock will help that or not. See what others say. I guess, if she eats okay it wouldn't hurt to feed her on a hard surface. However, it might be best to have a tortoise vet look at her and possibly file it and then you could keep it filed down or the slate/rock could then have a better chance of helping. These are just guess, so see what others say. She is so cute though. Btw, your two do not live in the same enclosure I hope.

 

[mike taylor]

I would cut the food up small so it will not have to bite off pieces. Trim his beak as needed myself or have a vet do it . It's going to be a tort. That you are going to have to take special care of . Hopefully it will get better with time. But I'm no expert hopefully Tom will be on soon .

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[LParkey]

Thanx for your input! I asked here because I know someone will have some advice/knowledge about her underbite. Explain to me, tho, why they shouldn't live together? I've housed several different size sullies together before with no issues. I don't mean to sound stupid lol sorry

 

[wellington]

Tortoises do not always do good living with others. They are a solitary species. Sulcatas more then others. It sometimes can work in a big enough outside area with several hides and sight barriers. When it doesn't work, it is because one is bullying the other. Sometimes it's obvious other times not so much. One sign, is one not grow as fast as the other. One sleeping or hiding out more then the other. One might always walk away when the bully gets close. In your case, either the bigger one could be bullying the littler one or vise versa. If the underbite makes it hard for her too eat, the younger one could also be making it even harder and eating the food before the larger one has a chance to get her fill. If things go really bad, you will have an injured tort or worse. Oh, also, keeping them in pairs is worse then if you have three or more. More adds more torts for the bully to pick on, instead of only one constantly being the target.

 

[mike taylor]

Well said

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[LParkey]

I've observed for hours and have never noticed any issues, the bigger tort "Sunshine" has been housed with several other sullies, big and small, and has never shown any aggression or bullying. I sincerely believe her growth issue is due to her underbite, not being with a bigger tort. I will separate them tomorrow and put my baby "Rayne" in a different cage and we will see if that is the issue. It worries me to separate them tho because my little gets very anxious when seperated from the other. She paces the cage constantly when they're not together. As far as finding a tort vet in Oklahoma, I really don't know if there is one but will call around in the morning to see which vets have the most experince with torts. There really aren't many reptile vets in the state =( I already chop her food up small as I know she cannot rip it herself, but as far as feeding her on slate or something like that hiw would that really work being that it's her bottom beak? Also, am I still going to have to worry about her top one over growing as well?

 

[wellington]

I am not sure if it will help her bottom but it will help the top to stay filed down. Also check the vet list at the beginning of the forum. Scroll down and there is a thread with every state and vets listed. There might e one near you on there.

 

[Jacqui]

More then likely you will have to do some break trimming as she grows. With luck you may get it to the point where it is "normal" If this animal is able to eat food normally, then you want it to do so. Cutting up the food (unless it needs that done) will only increase the problem. Also work towards it eating more of the weeds and things that are more fiberous, if it can. Once more this will help with the beak not growing out as quickly. You may find she can eat better f the food s piled high or even hanging above. Experiement with how you place the food along with how it's prepared (cut up small or left larger). You may also want to try some Mazuri on him, especially if eating is an issue. This is an animal who you will have to watch closely to make sure it is eating and continues to do so. You will know when the timming needs to be done, by appearance and the tortoise's starting to have problems eating it's food.

 

[sibi]

You may just have to hand feed this one for a while. Piling up the feed will help, but as the tort attempts to reach it, the food flattens out again and he gives up. This doesn't mean you shouldn't attempt to file up the food. Just be aware that in addition to this method, you will have to hand feed him.

If underbites for torts are anything like humans, it can be painful to eat with an under bite. My daughter had headaches and pain while trying to eat, especially meat, with her under bite. She had surgery to try and correct this problem.

He looks so cute but also looks sickly. I hope he can be fed some mazuri and gain some more weight.

 

[LParkey]

I feed Mazuri. Why do you say she looks sickly? I will experiment with feeding her. I found a 125gal that I started setting up for her today. I wasn't cutting her food up small before. I've done it over the last few months to see if that would help her eat/grow. At this point nothing I'm doing is helping so the underbite needs to be addressed. I don't know what a "normal" underbite would look like to know if it's grown too much. I personally feel it's overgrown but I wouldn't know. I will get her into the vet and have them show me how to file it so I can do it later on down the road. Idk if this is why she's not growing, but I assume the underbite is the reason. Just want her to be happy and healthy. I know she need special care her whole life so I need to make a plan of care with a vet.

 

[oknursedana]

Where in Oklahoma are you?

 

[sibi]

Oh I know you're doing all anyone can do for her. I say she looks sickly because to me she does. Her skin doesn't look hydrated enough. If she's not eating, naturally she will be lacking some vitamins and/or minerals. If you hand feed her like I do with my special tort, I think she'll start to put on weight. Btw, when you go to a vet, don't let him give your tort vitamin shots. Check with this forum about any treatments he wants to give her. Many here are experienced and knowledgeable who can advise you about that. Many have allowed their vets to give vitamin shots that eventually killed their tort because they gave mega doses of the stuff. So, check with the forum first, okay?

I feed Mazuri. Why do you say she looks sickly? I will experiment with ofeeding her. I found a 125gal that I started setting up for her today. I wasn't cutting her food up small before. I've done it over the last few months to see if that would help her eat/grow. At this point nothing I'm doing is helping so the underbite needs to be addressed. I don't know what a "normal" underbite would look like to know if it's grown too much. I personally feel it's overgrown but I wouldn't know. I will get her into the vet and have them show me how to file it so I can do it later on down the road. Idk if this is why she's not growing, but I assume the underbite is the reason. Just want her to be happy and healthy. I know she need special care her whole life so I need to make a plan of care with a vet.

 

[LParkey]

I will for sure. That's what scares me ... if it's not a tort specific vet I'm gonna be paranoid because of the horror stories I've heard with vets not knowing much about what they're treating! I've heard too many times of someone taking their bearded dragons who are on their last leg in to a vet and the vet assuming it's dehydrated so giving a shot and the dragon is dead by the time they get it home! Finding out AFTERWARDS that the vet specialized in snakes and didn't kniw much at all about dragons. I'll be no different with my tort! I'll call around to every reptile vet to see who has what amount of experience with tortoises and whoever has the most is who I'll trust. I drive over 100 miles to my dragon vet ... I'll go the distance for my babies!!!