Updated TortoiseTrust substrate post

[Tim Carlisle]

Understanding Terrarium Substrates: Updated

Along with heating and lighting systems, the choice of substrate in tortoise pens and terraria often causes a great deal of confusion to keepers. Some substrates are excellent, others can be positively lethal. In this article we help you to choose a safe and appropriate substrate, and show you...

www.tortoisetrust.com

Sounded like they took a jab at TFO towards the end:

"Finally, disregard the baseless and unscientific claims you will encounter on 'tortoise forums' and on poorly educated social media groups. "

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Typical

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Typical

It can be (and is!) very confusing for folks just starting out. Who do you believe? For me personally, I've followed @Tom 's (and others) advice here for many years and it's served me very well. All my chelonians are happy, healthy and vibrant. Then along comes an article stating that much of what I've learned and applied here is incorrect. That said, if you're just starting out, who do you believe? Proven trial and error by established reputable keepers? An article stating little to no empirical evidence other than "this is how they do in the wild"?

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I will have to go back to this and give it a good read when I have the time.

 

[wellington]

I learned early on that place can not be trusted and a lot of their info is not good.
It is very hard and confusing for newbies though. Unfortunately I was taken in by the care info of my breeder and other BS sites. When I finally found the forum, it was too late to turn the pyramiding around. However, the health of my tortoises seems right on. Never a sick tortoise yet, or any other problems, once the one rescue was rehabbed, knock on wood.
Hopefully when newbies come across this forum, they will realize the proof is in the many members doing it right, the smoother shells, the help that is given and the proof of many years of tortoise ownership and experience.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I learned early on that place can not be trusted and a lot of their info is not good.
It is very hard and confusing for newbies though. Unfortunately I was taken in by the care info of my breeder and other BS sites. When I finally found the forum, it was too late to turn the pyramiding around. However, the health of my tortoises seems right on. Never a sick tortoise yet, or any other problems, once the one rescue was rehabbed, knock on wood.
Hopefully when newbies come across this forum, they will realize the proof is in the many members doing it right, the smoother shells, the help that is given and the proof of many years of tortoise ownership and experience.

I'm getting ready to (hopefully) foster a sulcata for the rescue I volunteer for and trust me - the advice and methods I've read from this forum WILL BE APPLIED. lol

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

It can be (and is!) very confusing for folks just starting out. Who do you believe? For me personally, I've followed @Tom 's (and others) advice here for many years and it's served me very well. All my chelonians are happy, healthy and vibrant. Then along comes an article stating that much of what I've learned and applied here is incorrect. That said, if you're just starting out, who do you believe? Proven trial and error by established reputable keepers? An article stating little to no empirical evidence other than "this is how they do in the wild"?

Exactly! It’s so frustrating when sources like this try to discredit the forum.

For me I’ve always been able to trust this place because you don’t get fobbed off with answers that make no sense, the amount of times I’d go into reptile stores going back, nod along when they answered my questions, only to come out n be like ‘huh actually that made zero sense’

I got told once it’s impossible to create a set up with even heat distribution, that there always HAS to be a warm end and cool end, obviously that’s not needed for our red foot. I went back in and told her we’d achieved the ‘impossible’ and she was just like ohlike I understand they’ll always be a gradient under the heat source, to the corners, but come on, how can someone not understand it’s all about placement and what equipment you use?

Everyone can back their stuff up here with genuine findings on captive care

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I’m actually working on a super extensive article on keeping errors with captive care, I’ve been at it for nearly a year and I still don’t think it’ll be done till next year lol!
I’m essentially going through years of threads, cross referencing, fb examples, substrates being eaten, eyes hurt from bad lighting, pairs fighting, the lot. I’m also including examples of how correct husbandry has produced smooth growth or improved health.

Despite telling people over and over again why certain methods are either unsafe or simply outdated, too many continue to try and discredit the forums advice. But there’s no ignoring all the evidence this article with include. It’ll help shut places like this up hopefully, there’s simply too much to ignore

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I’m actually working on a super extensive article on keeping errors with captive care, I’ve been at it for nearly a year and I still don’t think it’ll be done till next year lol!
I’m essentially going through years of threads, cross referencing, fb examples, substrates being eaten, eyes hurt from bad lighting, pairs fighting, the lot. I’m also including examples of how correct husbandry has produced smooth growth or improved health.

Despite telling people over and over again why certain methods are either unsafe or simply outdated, too many continue to try and discredit the forums advice. But there’s no ignoring all the evidence this article with include. It’ll help shut places like this up hopefully, there’s simply too much to ignore

"Substrates being eaten". That should be a good one, especially if you include examples of impaction from sand ingestion. That's always been a tough topic.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

"Substrates being eaten". That should be a good one, especially if you include examples of impaction from sand ingestion. That's always been a tough topic.

There’s lots of examples of them eating the small white pieces we warn about.
Sand has always be a super controversial one, I can understand why to some extent, because finding documented examples hasn’t been the easiest, but I have managed to find a few, photo evidence included. To me, even if I heard about one tortoise becoming impacted, that’s enough for me to not want to use something that adds no benefit to the enclosure.

With all the ‘common error’ topics, there’s so many people like “oh well that’s rare, that won’t happen to me.. that’s not a real thing..” so I figured, BAM, here’s 50+ threads of evidence on whatever topic we’re arguing about proving why it’s an actual problem!I know we all do our best pulling up examples when people ask, but many have gotten buried over the years and lost. The more examples there are, the more weight the advice carries. Plus this way they’ll all be in one handy place

I’m looking forward to having it done, but boy I didn’t realise how long it’d take me

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I’m looking forward to having it done, but boy I didn’t realise how long it’d take me

And I look forward to seeing it done. Best of luck!!!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you! It’ll be worth it

There’s certain topics that are much trickier than others, small sizing for example, it can take years for that to take ill effect, and usually there’s other errors happening simultaneously, so by time tortoise is showing symptoms of something, it could be attributed to something else. I’ll definitely explain all this in the article though

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Sorry to intervene the forecoming crusade...
But Andy Highfield (behind TortoiseTrust) is a long-time researcher and tortoise keeper. You can't just disregard him as "sources like this". I definitely dislike the tone of his blog posts, yet there is still a ton of useful information.

List of experienced keepers doing things different from Tom is pretty long. Chris Leone is also experienced keeper (uses top soil and sand). Otto Hjemmeside also has a lot of experience (used almost every kind of substrate without issues, however, he stresses the need for damp substrates and moderate humidity and uses coco coir and bioactive substrates as of now).

"Substrates being eaten" includes every substrate. From paper towels to orchid bark. And any can cause blockage. Coconut substrates are also common finding in surgeries. So, to be fair, all documented cases should be included, categorized by substrate type and cleaned from influence of obvious husbandry errors (100% sand, extreme dehydration, infections and else). And, yes, overall popularity of substrates should be taken in account (10 cases out of 100K tortoises kept on sand/soil mix is not the same as 1 case out of 100 tortoises kept on hemp bedding). Even phytobezoars are a thing - tortoises can be impacted with their food but no one suggests to feed them blended mush.

Any kind of captive habitat can be done wrong. We have care sheets on proper "artificial environment" and care sheets on naturalistic habitats. They can contradict each other but neither is 100% wrong.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Sorry to intervene the forecoming crusade...
But Andy Highfield (behind TortoiseTrust) is a long-time researcher and tortoise keeper. You can't just disregard him as "sources like this". I definitely dislike the tone of his blog posts, yet there is still a ton of useful information.

List of experienced keepers doing things different from Tom is pretty long. Chris Leone is also experienced keeper (uses top soil and sand). Otto Hjemmeside also has a lot of experience (used almost every kind of substrate without issues, however, he stresses the need for damp substrates and moderate humidity and uses coco coir and bioactive substrates as of now).

"Substrates being eaten" includes every substrate. From paper towels to orchid bark. And any can cause blockage. Coconut substrates are also common finding in surgeries. So, to be fair, all documented cases should be included, categorized by substrate type and cleaned from influence of obvious husbandry errors (100% sand, extreme dehydration, infections and else). And, yes, overall popularity of substrates should be taken in account (10 cases out of 100K tortoises kept on sand/soil mix is not the same as 1 case out of 100 tortoises kept on hemp bedding). Even phytobezoars are a thing - tortoises can be impacted with their food but no one suggests to feed them blended mush.

Any kind of captive habitat can be done wrong. We have care sheets on proper "artificial environment" and care sheets on naturalistic habitats. They can contradict each other but neither is 100% wrong.

...but you can see how this would be confusing to folks though. Some keepers are pretty adamant about their particular technique(s); to the point of being pretty darn convincing. Open enclosure vs covered ; this substrate but not that substrate ; this diet vs that diet ; This temp range vs that temp range (and the list goes on...). Personally, I don't dismiss the article and keep an open mind about such things. I just know what has worked for me and my collective, which coincides with much (but not all) of Tom's recommendations. Unfortunately, there's no all-inclusive list of generally accepted practices when it comes to chelonians. Might be nice if there was, but I digress...

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

...but you can see how this would be confusing to folks though. Some keepers are pretty adamant about their particular technique(s); to the point of being pretty darn convincing. Open enclosure vs covered ; this substrate but not that substrate ; this diet vs that diet ; This temp range vs that temp range (and the list goes on...). Personally, I don't dismiss the article and keep an open mind about such things. I just know what has worked for me and my collective, which coincides with much (but not all) of Tom's recommendations. Unfortunately, there's no all-inclusive list of generally accepted practices when it comes to chelonians. Might be nice if there was, but I digress...

Unfortunately, something similar is happening on TFO from time to time (Bill Z comments on feeding fruit were shushed, Len B stepped back from sharing his experience, Markw84 post on humidifiers has been mostly ignored, Andy Highfield left the forum after epic fight with Tom).

Making a comprehensive list of safe and accepted practices, working around the contradicting statements, diving deep in "Why does it work here and not here?" is a super hard task. Unfortunately, it's far above my grade.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Sorry to intervene the forecoming crusade...
But Andy Highfield (behind TortoiseTrust) is a long-time researcher and tortoise keeper. You can't just disregard him as "sources like this". I definitely dislike the tone of his blog posts, yet there is still a ton of useful information.

List of experienced keepers doing things different from Tom is pretty long. Chris Leone is also experienced keeper (uses top soil and sand). Otto Hjemmeside also has a lot of experience (used almost every kind of substrate without issues, however, he stresses the need for damp substrates and moderate humidity and uses coco coir and bioactive substrates as of now).

"Substrates being eaten" includes every substrate. From paper towels to orchid bark. And any can cause blockage. Coconut substrates are also common finding in surgeries. So, to be fair, all documented cases should be included, categorized by substrate type and cleaned from influence of obvious husbandry errors (100% sand, extreme dehydration, infections and else). And, yes, overall popularity of substrates should be taken in account (10 cases out of 100K tortoises kept on sand/soil mix is not the same as 1 case out of 100 tortoises kept on hemp bedding). Even phytobezoars are a thing - tortoises can be impacted with their food but no one suggests to feed them blended mush.

Any kind of captive habitat can be done wrong. We have care sheets on proper "artificial environment" and care sheets on naturalistic habitats. They can contradict each other but neither is 100% wrong.

There’s still some useful information in there for sure, but on the flip side, he’s also disregarding the decades of work members have put in here, by saying things like “Finally, disregard the baseless and unscientific claims you will encounter on 'tortoise forums' and on poorly educated social media groups”
Where does he get off saying ‘unscientific’ claims? Toms info for example is based on decades of hands on research.
So I guess it works both waysthe problem with their way is, they don’t explain any potential risks thoroughly, people don’t get all the information they need and have to fill in blanks, it just contributes to already widespread problems in captive care.
They’re used to their practices and have been lucky enough to not run into issues, but their turning a blind eye to the problems they can cause for people, many of which come here looking for an answer having issues.

Don’t get me wrong yes, every substrate can be eaten, each one could cause their own problems or a blockage, with substrate eating the main priority should be why they’re doing it and making the amendments needed for them to stop.
Tortoises have to be kept on something, coir, orchid bark and mulch, if eaten, can certainly cause issues, any substrate if eaten in mouthfuls every day would.
When you say coconut substrate in surgeries, are you referring to coco fibres? Cause we do technically recommend avoiding anything too fibrous. I’m curious because I haven’t personally heard of a tortoise getting impacted by coir so would appreciate the insight and will happily include it.

Instances I’m personally coming across of tortoises eating coir or bark(very few) is to do with the lighting or it was a new substrate the tortoise was curious about. Whereas with soils, sands and stones, diet improvements have been needed. My point there is, I don’t think tortoise’s are as inclined to eat bark&coir to gain nutrients, which makes sense due to the lack of minerals compared with soils&sands.

The reason I’m focused on specific substrates is because one, it’s the ones I’m most commonly coming across with issues, two, the ‘bad’ ones commonly used, aren’t effective substrates, eg hay, hemp etc moulding, pellets and beech wood holding no humidity, sand getting in eyes.. and three, it’s not just about them purposely eating it, substrates with sand mixed in can get accidentally ingested with food, over a long period of time this can build up in their digestive tract. I’m coming at it from the angle of “if your tortoise is being kept correctly and substrate eating isn’t an issue, what’s the ‘least risky’, and most efficient substrates to use”, if I have to include a bunch of examples of tortoises eating& getting blocked by them to put people off, I don’t think that’s a bad thing considering all the other issues that come with them. I’ll still explain all the above points so they have a greater understanding.
Sand is definitely the most controversial one, but to me it’s just a no brainier. The reasons I’m including a lot of the substrate eating examples, is because a lot of them are tortoises noticing the white calcium pieces in soil, I don’t even think that’s necessarily always to do with a lack of nutrients, least not as far as some of the threads are concerned, I genuinely think a lot of tortoises will try to eat small white stones in soil regardless, it catches their eye. There’s that, and the horrible muddy consistency, people will often hold back adding moisture because of the ‘muddiness’, thus keeping the tortoise too dry, another common issue.
I hear you on the popularity side of things though, and that’s definitely something that needs taking into account.

Neither is 100% wrong, but in terms of captive tortoise care, one is proven safer with less varying results, that’s just my take

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Making a comprehensive list of safe and accepted practices, working around the contradicting statements, diving deep in "Why does it work here and not here?" is a super hard task. Unfortunately, it's far above my grade.

You’re right about this, I do want the post to encourage these all important questions being asked too!

Unfortunately, something similar is happening on TFO from time to time (Bill Z comments on feeding fruit were shushed, Len B stepped back from sharing his experience, Markw84 post on humidifiers has been mostly ignored, Andy Highfield left the forum after epic fight with Tom).

I’d certainly never want anything I post to disregard these very experienced people, I always love diving deeper into these topics with people, it’s a shame some left

 

[Tom]

This is the same old wrong advice that has led to failure for decades, and the same lack of understanding of the difference between the wild and a typical suburban back yard or indoor tortoise enclosure in a house. It ignores the decade and a half of "doing it correctly", and the tens of thousands of examples of how well it works compared to these old tired wrong methods.

I'm going to get into this one and type up a rebuttal, but I don't have time right now...

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I'm going to get into this one and type up a rebuttal, but I don't have time right now...

Please do! Would be very interested to read it

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Please do! Would be very interested to read it

Im looking forward to that as well. I LOVE a healthy debate!