UVB lighting for Winter

[aclesi11]

I usually bring my tortoise outside for his UVB, but with the temperature changes I haven't really been able to. What would you suggest as the cheapest way of getting him UVB? I have a exo terra UVB 150 bulb, but it is a coil bulb and I had been told that these can cause blindness, so I discontinued use a long time ago.

 

[sibi]

Hi Aclesi, uvb bulbs that are the coil type can cause eye problems in torts. You can check online for mercury vapor bulbs (100w) for as little as $21-27. That's the cheapest I've ever seen them at. Also, there is the long tube full spectrum uvb light, but you'll need to buy the fixture for it, unless you already have one. Measure the length of the fixture, and get a bulb that will fit. Either way, I don't see a real cheap way to get a UVb bulb that will be safe for your baby.

Keeping and raising torts are not cheap. As you are finding out, it cost a lot of money to give your tort the proper food, humidity, uvb lighting, and shelter. It's cheaper when they are young, but when they get older, and in need of larger enclosures, then it can become expensive. Did you know this when you got your tort?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Honestly, the cheapest way is to still use the sun.

Your tort doesn't need hours and hours outside everyday. During the winter try to give him just 20 min. a week walking around in the sun. Once the weather warms up you can resume regular time outdoors.

Now, if you want to buy artificial UV bulbs by all means, go ahead. It won't do you any harm to have it (as long as it isn't the coil bulb). But I can think of better uses for $30- $50 so I stick with the free UV source

 

[Tom]

Oh yeah. In your climate there will be enough warm sunny days over winter.

One thing I will sometimes do is use a big black cement mixing tub for winter sunning. Even on a 60 degree day, the surface of that tub will get into the 90s. Of course they always have some shade available too, which is easy when the sun is at such a low angle in winter. Just use your temp gun and take carapace readings, surface readings and generally watch your tortoises behavior when sunning this way.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Honestly, the cheapest way is to still use the sun.

Your tort doesn't need hours and hours outside everyday. During the winter try to give him just 20 min. a week walking around in the sun. Once the weather warms up you can resume regular time outdoors.

Now, if you want to buy artificial UV bulbs by all means, go ahead. It won't do you any harm to have it (as long as it isn't the coil bulb). But I can think of better uses for $30- $50 so I stick with the free UV source

Smart a$$. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES][GROWING HEART]

Some of us live in a proverbial cave up here in the dark and gloomy Pacific NorthWET!
It will be rainy, cold (30-45°) with 800' over cast, UV Index-0 for MONTHS here. Do you wanna sit outside, in the cold and windy rain, with presumptively zero UV exposure? Freeze your little elephant feeties right off! No? I didn't think so. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] (now in my best baby talk voice, as to annoy everyone this morning....cuz that's what I do...)
"Mamma will get you a nice warm and glowy PowerSun....yes she will...."

 

[AZtortMom]

Honestly, the cheapest way is to still use the sun.

Your tort doesn't need hours and hours outside everyday. During the winter try to give him just 20 min. a week walking around in the sun. Once the weather warms up you can resume regular time outdoors.

Now, if you want to buy artificial UV bulbs by all means, go ahead. It won't do you any harm to have it (as long as it isn't the coil bulb). But I can think of better uses for $30- $50 so I stick with the free UV source

Smart a$$. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES][GROWING HEART]

Some of us live in a proverbial cave up here in the dark and gloomy Pacific NorthWET!
It will be rainy, cold (30-45°) with 800' over cast, UV Index-0 for MONTHS here. Do you wanna sit outside, in the cold and windy rain, with presumptively zero UV exposure? Freeze your little elephant feeties right off! No? I didn't think so. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] (now in my best baby talk voice, as to annoy everyone this morning....cuz that's what I do...)
"Mamma will get you a nice warm and glowy PowerSun....yes she will...."

Laughing my a$$ off [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES][GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Some of us live in a proverbial cave up here in the dark and gloomy Pacific NorthWET!
It will be rainy, cold (30-45°) with 800' over cast, UV Index-0 for MONTHS here. Do you wanna sit outside, in the cold and windy rain, with presumptively zero UV exposure? Freeze your little elephant feeties right off! No? I didn't think so. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] (now in my best baby talk voice, as to annoy everyone this morning....cuz that's what I do...)
"Mamma will get you a nice warm and glowy PowerSun....yes she will...."

What? Wet, cold, and no sun?? You aren't speaking Californian.... I don't understand

LOL

In all seriousness though, if you had to keep a tortoise inside without artificial UV lighting for a few weeks/ couple of months, I think you'd be fine. As long as they get adequate UV the rest of the year.
Anyone (even SoCal dwellers) can buy and use the UV lighting. But I wanted to make it clear to the OP and any other readers that they still have the option of using the sun. When someone mentions "what is the cheapest way to do this" they are probably tight on cash. I'd hate to think they use the cheap coil bulb to save a buck thinking that's a better option than 4 weeks of no sun. IMO it isn't. I'd choose 4-6 weeks no sun over a coil bulb every year. **Oh how I love living in SoCal **

Another thing I have noticed is confusion on how long a tortoise needs to be in the sun to meet it's UV needs. They read the UV bulb packaging and it says "use for 12-14 hours a day". They then think this translates into their tortoise needing to be outside in the sun for 12-14 hours. It doesn't. The sun blows the artificial bulbs out of the water!! Plus, UV bounces around so even in the shade or on cloudy days a tortoise can absorb UV rays. The natural way is awesome and surprisingly too many people don't really understand it. Now look, I'm no scientist and don't have a degree understanding the ultra violet spectrum. But I know enough to not underestimate it's power! Plus, I've heard and read many examples of tortoises that suffer no MBD from a winter without UV bulbs.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Some of us live in a proverbial cave up here in the dark and gloomy Pacific NorthWET!
It will be rainy, cold (30-45°) with 800' over cast, UV Index-0 for MONTHS here. Do you wanna sit outside, in the cold and windy rain, with presumptively zero UV exposure? Freeze your little elephant feeties right off! No? I didn't think so. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] (now in my best baby talk voice, as to annoy everyone this morning....cuz that's what I do...)
"Mamma will get you a nice warm and glowy PowerSun....yes she will...."

What? Wet, cold, and no sun?? You aren't speaking Californian.... I don't understand

LOL

In all seriousness though, if you had to keep a tortoise inside without artificial UV lighting for a few weeks/ couple of months, I think you'd be fine. As long as they get adequate UV the rest of the year.
Anyone (even SoCal dwellers) can buy and use the UV lighting. But I wanted to make it clear to the OP and any other readers that they still have the option of using the sun. When someone mentions "what is the cheapest way to do this" they are probably tight on cash. I'd hate to think they use the cheap coil bulb to save a buck thinking that's a better option than 4 weeks of no sun. IMO it isn't. I'd choose 4-6 weeks no sun over a coil bulb every year. **Oh how I love living in SoCal **

Another thing I have noticed is confusion on how long a tortoise needs to be in the sun to meet it's UV needs. They read the UV bulb packaging and it says "use for 12-14 hours a day". They then think this translates into their tortoise needing to be outside in the sun for 12-14 hours. It doesn't. The sun blows the artificial bulbs out of the water!! Plus, UV bounces around so even in the shade or on cloudy days a tortoise can absorb UV rays. The natural way is awesome and surprisingly too many people don't really understand it. Now look, I'm no scientist with a degree in understanding the ultra violet spectrum. But I know enough to not underestimate it's power! And I've heard and read many examples of tortoises suffer no MBD from a winter without UV bulbs.

Well said!!!!!

And yes, 20-30 minutes of real sunlight is approximately 12 hours of fake.
Real sun is EXPONENTIALLY more "potent" than even the best UVA/UVB lamp.

 

[lisa127]

I envy you all. I'm in the Cleveland, Ohio area.

 

[lighthiker2]

Sulcata_Sandy, Your comment about Mama getting a nice glowey Powersun has me LMAO... So funny... And SOOOO true!

 

[jaizei]

Some of us live in a proverbial cave up here in the dark and gloomy Pacific NorthWET!
It will be rainy, cold (30-45°) with 800' over cast, UV Index-0 for MONTHS here. Do you wanna sit outside, in the cold and windy rain, with presumptively zero UV exposure? Freeze your little elephant feeties right off! No? I didn't think so. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] (now in my best baby talk voice, as to annoy everyone this morning....cuz that's what I do...)
"Mamma will get you a nice warm and glowy PowerSun....yes she will...."

What? Wet, cold, and no sun?? You aren't speaking Californian.... I don't understand

LOL

In all seriousness though, if you had to keep a tortoise inside without artificial UV lighting for a few weeks/ couple of months, I think you'd be fine. As long as they get adequate UV the rest of the year.
Anyone (even SoCal dwellers) can buy and use the UV lighting. But I wanted to make it clear to the OP and any other readers that they still have the option of using the sun. When someone mentions "what is the cheapest way to do this" they are probably tight on cash. I'd hate to think they use the cheap coil bulb to save a buck thinking that's a better option than 4 weeks of no sun. IMO it isn't. I'd choose 4-6 weeks no sun over a coil bulb every year. **Oh how I love living in SoCal **

Another thing I have noticed is confusion on how long a tortoise needs to be in the sun to meet it's UV needs. They read the UV bulb packaging and it says "use for 12-14 hours a day". They then think this translates into their tortoise needing to be outside in the sun for 12-14 hours. It doesn't. The sun blows the artificial bulbs out of the water!! Plus, UV bounces around so even in the shade or on cloudy days a tortoise can absorb UV rays. The natural way is awesome and surprisingly too many people don't really understand it. Now look, I'm no scientist with a degree in understanding the ultra violet spectrum. But I know enough to not underestimate it's power! And I've heard and read many examples of tortoises suffer no MBD from a winter without UV bulbs.

Well said!!!!!

And yes, 20-30 minutes of real sunlight is approximately 12 hours of fake.
Real sun is EXPONENTIALLY more "potent" than even the best UVA/UVB lamp.

I would be careful with these statements. It is oversimplifying a complex subject that has numerous variables. I would also be interested in any data substantiating this approximation. UVB is measurable. So in places that are perpetually overcast, some bulbs do provide as much as or more UVB than available outside.

Regarding this idea of 'potency'; one of the reasons that some fluorescent bulbs were dangerous in the past is that they produced UV that was more 'potent'.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

My "data" came from my reptile courses in school 20 something years ago and while much has been learned, basic data of solar UVA/UVB/UVC and other non-visual light which is beneficial to reptiles is unchanged. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

A good means of researching and learning more about full spectrum/UVB light, readings, spectrometers, etc is http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm
Also read chameleon forums, as chameleon keepers seem toe really obsess over UV light.

But some very basic, generic numbers are:

Overcast day, northern hemisphere 80-100uW/cm2
Full sun, 180-350uW/cm2
MVB lamp 10-50uW/cm2

These are very generalized numbers I've collected, based on UVB meter manufacturer data.
What makes the exposure exponential, is the total full spectrum light they receive that cannot be generated with a bulb. Man cannot replace what they receive from the sun. This is why my guys, who are all on fairly new PowerSuns or fluorescent tubes, are also getting outside often, even if it is cold, rainy, and overcast...because man cannot duplicate what God provides for free from that glowy orb in the sky...regardless of the cloud cover. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

 

[johnsonnboswell]

Winter - the months when the crew cannot be outdoors- is 6 to 9 months long where I live. So UVB lights are important.

 

[jaizei]

My "data" came from my reptile courses in school 20 something years ago and while much has been learned, basic data of solar UVA/UVB/UVC and other non-visual light which is beneficial to reptiles is unchanged. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

A good means of researching and learning more about full spectrum/UVB light, readings, spectrometers, etc is http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm
Also read chameleon forums, as chameleon keepers seem toe really obsess over UV light.

But some very basic, generic numbers are:

Overcast day, northern hemisphere 80-100uW/cm2
Full sun, 180-350uW/cm2
MVB lamp 10-50uW/cm2

These are very generalized numbers I've collected, based on UVB meter manufacturer data.
What makes the exposure exponential, is the total full spectrum light they receive that cannot be generated with a bulb. Man cannot replace what they receive from the sun. This is why my guys, who are all on fairly new PowerSuns or fluorescent tubes, are also getting outside often, even if it is cold, rainy, and overcast...because man cannot duplicate what God provides for free from that glowy orb in the sky...regardless of the cloud cover. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

Take your UV meter and measure the UVB output of T5HOs or Megarays, and then sun at various times (hourly & seasonally)/under various skies. Afterwards, you will know that 50uW/cm2 is nowhere near the the upper limit of UVB bulbs. And 80uW/cm2 is not the lower limit for overcast skies. The numbers can vary greatly depending on location as well. There is a reason I try to qualify my statements when I say something about UVB in shade, through screen, etc. You used 'generalized' numbers that make it seem as though you are right.

"20-30 minutes of real sunlight is approximately 12 hours of fake." Either you have something to back up this approximation or not. Realistically, because it is such a blanket statement, you won't be able to. There are too many variables.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Wow. I happily give generic data/numbers based on data from manufacturers and you attack me.
I didn't know this thread was competition, nor did I claim to be "right". You ask for my info, I gave it.
If I'm wrong, let's discuss, not belittle. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

If I'm wrong, POLITELY interject that you have data that shows overwise. I get most of my information from the above posted link, plus the other sources I mention, plus vet school (CSU) from eons ago. Please talk to the Chameleon people (who obsess about UV) and the UK Solar Meter site I posted for everyone's benefit.

There is no way a "sunlamp" of any sort will duplicate what the sun itself can produce. [BLACK SUN WITH RAYS]️

And yes, anecdotally, a few minutes of real sunlight...full or overcast...is worth hours under any brand of UV lamp. Please do prove me if I am wrong, and repost in every reptile forum and magazine, as that is discussed often and openly I've read it often, and our reptile DVMs recommend real sunlight, even overcast, several times a week when possible to make up for what a UV lamp cannot offer. I'm going to stick by those recommendations. [TURTLE]

 

[jaizei]

Wow. I happily give generic data/numbers based on data from manufacturers and you attack me.
I didn't know this thread was competition, nor did I claim to be "right". You ask for my info, I gave it.
If I'm wrong, let's discuss, not belittle. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

If I'm wrong, POLITELY interject that you have data that shows overwise. I get most of my information from the above posted link, plus the other sources I mention, plus vet school (CSU) from eons ago. Please talk to the Chameleon people (who obsess about UV) and the UK Solar Meter site I posted for everyone's benefit.

There is no way a "sunlamp" of any sort will duplicate what the sun itself can produce. [BLACK SUN WITH RAYS]️

And yes, anecdotally, a few minutes of real sunlight...full or overcast...is worth hours under any brand of UV lamp. Please do prove me if I am wrong, and repost in every reptile forum and magazine, as that is discussed often and openly I've read it often, and our reptile DVMs recommend real sunlight, even overcast, several times a week when possible to make up for what a UV lamp cannot offer. I'm going to stick by those recommendations. [TURTLE]

I am quite familiar with the site you linked, as well as many others. The 'generalized'/'generic' numbers you provided are meaningless without context. UVB available outside depends on location/season/time/weather. UVB provided by bulb depends on manufacturer.

From Ms. Baines site:
"The further north that recordings are made, the lower the maximum (noon) reading and of course, the shorter the day. In Florida, for example, at latitudes 25 - 30N, observers recorded maximum readings around 150 - 250 µW/cm² whereas further north in Colorado, 40N, readings only just topped 100µW/cm². Readings here were boosted, too, by the high altitude; not much further north, in Illinois at 42N, only 70 - 90µW/cm² was seen.

Around 50N, the days are very short at this time of the year and UVB levels are very low indeed. The maximum reading taken in Wales (latitude 52N), despite clear sunlight, was only 29µW/cm²; and at Helsinki at 60N, our observer climbed onto his roof to see the sun and recorded only 7µW/cm². "

I doubt that 20 minutes outside where the meter only registered 29µW/cm² is equivalent to 12 hours of 100µW/cm² under a Megaray or equivalent. You are free to share all the anecdotes you want, but saying "20-30 minutes of real sunlight is approximately 12 hours of fake" presents it as fact. It is one thing to say that exposure to sunlight several times per week can negate the need for a UVB bulb.