A couple of points have been brought up about this recently, and I feel the need to address them
First off, it is becoming generally accepted (at least among the members of this forum) that carapace humidity (misting) starting at a very early age (and continuing for an as yet not determined amount of time) is essential for growing non-pyramided tortoises. View Tom's thread on his baby Sulcatas for reference -
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding
Second, Tom has also raised questions about the actual permeability of the carapace, or shell in general. Several members (myself included) have noticed that drier conditions tend to produce a "sunken" look to the scutes, particularly of younger tortoises of certain species and centering around the original scute that they are born with.
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Carapace-Like-A-Sponge
There has been some question as to whether the skin of shell of a tortoise is in fact permeable, but I have a couple of theories I will expound on in just a minute.
Over the years, when I have had a young tortoise or turtle that was weakened, ill, not eating, etc., I have used baby food/vitamin soaks as a means to add needed nutrients and energy. The method for this is simple. Prepare a soak for your tortoise. The water should be warm but not hot to the touch, and the level of the water should just cover the bridge between the carapace (upper shell) and plastron (lower shell.) Into the water, mix one jar (or less for smaller volume soaks, but a good portion of around 30-40% of the total volume) of human baby food. Carrots or butternut squash seem to work the best. To the water can also be added bird vitamins of the kind that are mixed with water (Vitasol is one) and I have also used human baby vitamins (such as Gerber Poly Vi Sol.) Another great option is to add a liquid calcium carbonate solution, which can be purchased over the counter and is particularly a good choice for tortoises that have soft carapaces or plastrons, or very fine grade, suspendable calcium carbonate powder. The soak should be placed in an area that will allow it to remain warm for 15-20 minutes, such as on a heat pad, under a heat lamp, or next to a heat duct.
The symptoms under which I use/recommend this treatment are - lethargy, refusing to open eyes, puffy eyes, refusing to eat, and softness of the shell. Sometimes antibiotic therapy will cause a tortoise to go off its feed for a few days, and these soaks can be used at that time, also.
Yvonne is another advocate of this treatment, and she recommends it often and has used it to good effect herself.
Now, of course, the proof is in the pudding. I can think of one recently documented case where this treatment appears to have made the difference between life and death.
This is about a little CDT named Heidi, and her two siblings.
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Jus...by-desert-tortoises-Need-help?highlight=Heidi
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Heidi-the-Come-Back-Kid?highlight=Heidi
Okay, now we come to the question about permeability of the shell and skin.
I personally believe that the shell and skin both are permeable, for a few different reasons. One, we have seen how keeping the carapace humid and lubricated leads to smooth growth. Second, we have also seen how dry conditions affect the carapace of some species, causing the scutes to sink, or thin out from dehydration. An inert substance would not have that reaction to applied humidity.
Another point - I have always thought that the areas of skin close to the body, under the throat, and surrounding the cloaca to be more permeable than the rest of the body. A tortoise has very thick, scaley skin on the rest of its body, but those areas tend to be soft. Another tidbit - I realize that a softshell turtle and a land dwelling tortoise are completely different species, but - did you know that softshell turtles can actually respirate by flushing water in and out of the cloaca, and absorbing the oxygen it contains? I am not suggesting that the cloacal lining of tortoise works in exactly the same fashion, but considering the close physiological similarities in turtles and tortoises, it does lend some credence to the idea that the cloacal lining is indeed permeable.
A further point I want to make involves the shell of young/baby tortoises in particular. Baby tortoises are softer than a lot of people realize when they leave the egg. It takes several months to several years for their shells to truly harden. This in my mind makes it logical that baby tortoises are overall more permeable than an adult. It goes along with what we have found to be true - misting/humidity causes babies to grow smooth, and babies generally hide most of the time in humid burrows or at the base of plants, where ambient humidity is higher. Babies subjected to drier conditions seem to dehydrate and their scutes become sunken. If the shells of young tortoises were NOT permeable, then why in the world would applied/ambient humidity make a difference? Doesn't this prove that their shells (and most likely the skin, too) are absorbing fluids?
Also - the yolk sack When tortoises first hatch from the egg, there is a yolk sack hanging out from their plastron. It takes several days to absorb, and they can feed off it for up to 7-10 days. The reason that I am bringing this up is that where the yolk sack absorbs, there is an opening. It does close up, but, wouldn't this also create a sort of "entry point" of thinner and more easily permeable scute material? Think of it like the soft spot in a human baby's skull. There is skin covering it, but it takes time for the bone itself to grow together and cover the opening. I can't imagine that a hatchling tortoise would grow a thick layer of bone in that area in a matter of a few days. It is likely at least a couple of months. This would explain why a hatchling tortoise would be able to better absorb nutrients and fluids osmotically.
There is another simple reason that vitamin and baby food soaks do work - the tortoise is ingesting the vitamins while drinking.
Another aspect of this method that was questioned recently had to do with Avitaminosis A, or lack of Vitamin A, which can cause eye problems, particularly swelling. Again, I will state that I do not know exactly what causes puffy eyes in every case, nor do I think that every case is indeed Avitaminosis A and not infection or irritation. However, carrots and butternut squash do have higher levels of Vitamin A. In 99% of the cases of puffiness that I myself have actually witnessed and dealt with, the vitamin and baby food soaks have created an improvement within 3-4 days. I do believe that with certain species (Redfoots and Hingebacks to be two of those) eye problems are caused by too dry conditions. Therefore the soaks alone may be creating the improvement, with the baby food and vitamins not really being needed. I often also suggest adding broad leaf plantain to the diet along with this treatment, which also has high levels of Vitamin A. I will allow you to draw your own conclusions there.
I think that I have made all the initial points that I intended to, but I am sure I will think of other things as others post I really want to hear opinions and experiences.
First off, it is becoming generally accepted (at least among the members of this forum) that carapace humidity (misting) starting at a very early age (and continuing for an as yet not determined amount of time) is essential for growing non-pyramided tortoises. View Tom's thread on his baby Sulcatas for reference -
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding
Second, Tom has also raised questions about the actual permeability of the carapace, or shell in general. Several members (myself included) have noticed that drier conditions tend to produce a "sunken" look to the scutes, particularly of younger tortoises of certain species and centering around the original scute that they are born with.
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Carapace-Like-A-Sponge
There has been some question as to whether the skin of shell of a tortoise is in fact permeable, but I have a couple of theories I will expound on in just a minute.
Over the years, when I have had a young tortoise or turtle that was weakened, ill, not eating, etc., I have used baby food/vitamin soaks as a means to add needed nutrients and energy. The method for this is simple. Prepare a soak for your tortoise. The water should be warm but not hot to the touch, and the level of the water should just cover the bridge between the carapace (upper shell) and plastron (lower shell.) Into the water, mix one jar (or less for smaller volume soaks, but a good portion of around 30-40% of the total volume) of human baby food. Carrots or butternut squash seem to work the best. To the water can also be added bird vitamins of the kind that are mixed with water (Vitasol is one) and I have also used human baby vitamins (such as Gerber Poly Vi Sol.) Another great option is to add a liquid calcium carbonate solution, which can be purchased over the counter and is particularly a good choice for tortoises that have soft carapaces or plastrons, or very fine grade, suspendable calcium carbonate powder. The soak should be placed in an area that will allow it to remain warm for 15-20 minutes, such as on a heat pad, under a heat lamp, or next to a heat duct.
The symptoms under which I use/recommend this treatment are - lethargy, refusing to open eyes, puffy eyes, refusing to eat, and softness of the shell. Sometimes antibiotic therapy will cause a tortoise to go off its feed for a few days, and these soaks can be used at that time, also.
Yvonne is another advocate of this treatment, and she recommends it often and has used it to good effect herself.
Now, of course, the proof is in the pudding. I can think of one recently documented case where this treatment appears to have made the difference between life and death.
This is about a little CDT named Heidi, and her two siblings.
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Jus...by-desert-tortoises-Need-help?highlight=Heidi
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Heidi-the-Come-Back-Kid?highlight=Heidi
Okay, now we come to the question about permeability of the shell and skin.
I personally believe that the shell and skin both are permeable, for a few different reasons. One, we have seen how keeping the carapace humid and lubricated leads to smooth growth. Second, we have also seen how dry conditions affect the carapace of some species, causing the scutes to sink, or thin out from dehydration. An inert substance would not have that reaction to applied humidity.
Another point - I have always thought that the areas of skin close to the body, under the throat, and surrounding the cloaca to be more permeable than the rest of the body. A tortoise has very thick, scaley skin on the rest of its body, but those areas tend to be soft. Another tidbit - I realize that a softshell turtle and a land dwelling tortoise are completely different species, but - did you know that softshell turtles can actually respirate by flushing water in and out of the cloaca, and absorbing the oxygen it contains? I am not suggesting that the cloacal lining of tortoise works in exactly the same fashion, but considering the close physiological similarities in turtles and tortoises, it does lend some credence to the idea that the cloacal lining is indeed permeable.
A further point I want to make involves the shell of young/baby tortoises in particular. Baby tortoises are softer than a lot of people realize when they leave the egg. It takes several months to several years for their shells to truly harden. This in my mind makes it logical that baby tortoises are overall more permeable than an adult. It goes along with what we have found to be true - misting/humidity causes babies to grow smooth, and babies generally hide most of the time in humid burrows or at the base of plants, where ambient humidity is higher. Babies subjected to drier conditions seem to dehydrate and their scutes become sunken. If the shells of young tortoises were NOT permeable, then why in the world would applied/ambient humidity make a difference? Doesn't this prove that their shells (and most likely the skin, too) are absorbing fluids?
Also - the yolk sack When tortoises first hatch from the egg, there is a yolk sack hanging out from their plastron. It takes several days to absorb, and they can feed off it for up to 7-10 days. The reason that I am bringing this up is that where the yolk sack absorbs, there is an opening. It does close up, but, wouldn't this also create a sort of "entry point" of thinner and more easily permeable scute material? Think of it like the soft spot in a human baby's skull. There is skin covering it, but it takes time for the bone itself to grow together and cover the opening. I can't imagine that a hatchling tortoise would grow a thick layer of bone in that area in a matter of a few days. It is likely at least a couple of months. This would explain why a hatchling tortoise would be able to better absorb nutrients and fluids osmotically.
There is another simple reason that vitamin and baby food soaks do work - the tortoise is ingesting the vitamins while drinking.
Another aspect of this method that was questioned recently had to do with Avitaminosis A, or lack of Vitamin A, which can cause eye problems, particularly swelling. Again, I will state that I do not know exactly what causes puffy eyes in every case, nor do I think that every case is indeed Avitaminosis A and not infection or irritation. However, carrots and butternut squash do have higher levels of Vitamin A. In 99% of the cases of puffiness that I myself have actually witnessed and dealt with, the vitamin and baby food soaks have created an improvement within 3-4 days. I do believe that with certain species (Redfoots and Hingebacks to be two of those) eye problems are caused by too dry conditions. Therefore the soaks alone may be creating the improvement, with the baby food and vitamins not really being needed. I often also suggest adding broad leaf plantain to the diet along with this treatment, which also has high levels of Vitamin A. I will allow you to draw your own conclusions there.
I think that I have made all the initial points that I intended to, but I am sure I will think of other things as others post I really want to hear opinions and experiences.