VitaShell

[Tom]

Maggie and GB, I have tremendous respect for you both and I hear you. I have always believed and said the same things you are now saying. I have raised turtles and tortoises for nearly my whole life and never put any schmutz on any of them. I just want to see if this is one more of those long held beliefs that just hold no water. Just like the "Desert" conditions for sulcatas and leopards. Remember that AH of the TT also said that the humidity thing was just a red herring and compared people who subscribed to the theory to space alien enthusiasts. That was just a few short years ago. Of course, he's done a 180 on that now...

If I really thought it would do harm, I would not do it. People have living, breathing skin with millions of pores too and yet my wife heaps tons of this kind of sploochy stuff all over herself everyday. Her skins feels pretty darn nice. One difference between this and paint is that is absorbs and dissipates and its only applied once a week, while paint is a "permanent" impenetrable barrier.

Part of the problem that I'm seeing is that in between shell sprayings their shells are just bone dry whether they are inside or out in the sun. I'm doing all I can for humidity, yet my hatchlings are still not perfect. They are 1000 times better than they ever have been, but there is still room for improvement. This is one effort to see if I can compensate for the dry shells and the problems caused by it.

I have two other experiments running this year that I will post on later today or tomorrow. These also focus on eliminating the dry shells, but still meeting all the tortoises needs. I will want your input there too.

You guys might be right about this, but sometimes people have to see for themselves. As always thank you both for posting and contributing your thoughts on the matter. I always appreciate your input.

 

[GBtortoises]

Tom-I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't really see the point of the practice. Highfield a dozen years ago also attributed pyramiding almost soley to excessive protein. Read what he says about that now. I'm not defending him, but he does have many good ideas, as do several people on this site. One major difference is that he has extensive fieldwork experience, far more than anyone that frequents this site as far as I know. But then another difference in my opinion is that on this site we can voice our differences without being lambasted for "going against the Master" (he has an almost cult like following to some). Sorry for getting off subject...
I'm not saying that someone else doing it is right or wrong, but I simply don't see a point, or advantage in coating a tortoise or turtles shell with a film of oil. Don't they do just fine naturally without it? If that is the case why would they need it now? Many years ago the practice was to use cod liver oil and/or vitamin "E" oil and wipe down tortoise and turtle shells. I did it often, as did many people I know. All I ever saw as results was lots of dirt, dust and grime stuck to the shells, which sometime led to shell fungus and rot when the foreign matter got into any void in the scutes. I stopped doing it. I never noticed a benefit from it, but did notice problems from it. If someone is going to use Vitashell why not safe a lot of money and just use any type of vegetable oil instead. According to the ingredients that is what it is primarly comprised of, several different types of vegetable based oils along with some binders to hold it together.
Despite contrary believe, keratin is porous (just confirmed it with a Bing search) but it obviously does not have the large size pores that soft tissue does so it's difficult accurately compare the two. Skin is extremely absorbent by comparison. Which leads to my point of the "goop" just sitting on top of the keratin. It acts like paint by mainly sitting on top of the pores and blocking them. Way back when turtles were being painted the problem wasn't that they couldn't grow because they had paint on them, the problem was that the paint formed a barrier and was blocking out UV absorption and probably air exchange.
All that being the case it would stand to reason that the thickness of a material put on a tortoise's shell would probably determine is absorption potential. Oil is thicker than water.
Like I said, I simply don't see the point, or maybe more appropriately, the necessity of this practice. I've never seen a tortoise do better because of a shiny wax job. On the flip side, I've seen turtle wax give a heck of shine so if some is inclined to see a shine, wax your car, not your tortoise!

 

[Zouave]

Kudos to you Tom! For putting your experiments on display for the world to witness and digest.

A couple thoughts:
With the amount of misting/spraying/soaking/swimming/diving that many modern captive tortoises enjoy, i don't think that this moisturizer (thats all it really is) would end up clogging pores. Seeing as all the ingredients are also used in many human (even baby) products with no ill skin clogging effects it is presumable that it would be safe for tortoises. Now that's not saying it hasn't been used improperly or under incorrect conditions in the past.

Ingredients:
Purified softened water, sunflower oil, emulsifying wax NF, cetyl alcohol, coconut oil, pal oil, soybean oil, glycerine, lanolin, cotton seed oil, stearamidopropyl dimethylamin lactate, protein conditioners, diazolidinyl urea, rosemary oil, methylparaben, propylparaben, FD&C yellow 6.

Natural oils, an emulsifier, a preservative, an anti microbial, an anti fungal and some food colour. thats all it is. Some big words there but much of them naturally occurring chemicals. The cetyl alcohol MAY be petroleum based but could also be vegetable based.

Also this notion of, "If it doesn't happen in the wild then i wouldn't/won't", rings kinda hollow. Most animal keepers try to provide BETTER than wild conditions not equal. What wild animals can find food waiting for them everyday of the year without working for it? Wild animals don't get expensive surgeries or medications (save for a few that are being studied but then one could make the argument that they are being kept, lol), nice hot basking spots available whenever they want, Lets not even start on protection from predators. Tortoises are the worlds best survivors because they can tolerate some pretty terrible times if they have to but no one would knowingly keep torts that way (well most no one) so why not try something new if it seems it will do no harm and who knows maybe some good?

My two cents

 

[Tom]

"I'm not saying that someone else doing it is right or wrong, but I simply don't see a point, or advantage in coating a tortoise or turtles shell with a film of oil. Don't they do just fine naturally without it?" -GB

Ahh... herein lies our point of contention. Well its not really "contention" just a little friendly discussion. YOUR tortoises in YOUR environment are probably doing just fine without it. You are a great keeper and you know your species as well or better than any one else I know. I, on the other hand, don't have the experience with my species and the number of individuals that you have. Further, even with monumental effort, my hatchlings still are not where I want them to be. They are much better than any that I've ever done before, but I want them to be as perfect as I can make them. So while you are satisfied with the growth of YOUR babies, I am not yet. THIS is the reason why I keep trying to explore new ways of doing things and improving upon what I already have. I wish I could get you out here and show you just how dry it really is. BTW, I don't think I would do this with any Testudo species, but these darn sulcatas and leopards just don't wanna grow smooth!

Zouave, you make a good point about what happens in the wild and I agree completely. The example I like to use is that mother nature hatches 100's or thousands of tortoises just to get ONE to adulthood. Mimicking nature is not an acceptable survival rate for me.

 

[GBtortoises]

Tom: No contention here, just discussion. I'll try not to beat this to death, but... My point still is and may always be that I see no legitimate purpose for coating a living tortoises shell with grease and oil, suffocating it's ability to breath and attracting dirt, dust and unknowns that can potentially lead to shell problems. That has nothing to do with how well mine, yours or anyone elses baby tortoises are growing. For the most part, raising baby tortoises is actually a fairly basic and simple process, one that most of us have figured out. And that's not a zing, I am referring to you and many other people on this site and in the hobby. Incidentally, Highfield believes that the whole "necessary humidity" issue is BS and has done field readings showing how dry it actually is a Mediterranean tortoise's natural habitat. And yet, they grow smooth in the wild. Why? I wish I had the answer!

Zouave: I've never heard another tortoise keeper say, or said myself that: "If it doesn't happen in the wild then I wouldn't/won't." Nothing could be farther from the truth! If that were the case all of us that supposedly believe that would let our tortoise roam free, with no barriers to keep them in; we wouldn't feed them, we would let them fend for themselves; we wouldn't medicate a sick or injured one, we would let nature take it's course; we wouldn't dig up any eggs and artificially incubate them, we would leave them in the ground and hope for the best; and so on and so on. Your statement is ludicrous and with no basis of truth.

Tom: I'm very open to new ideas when it comes to improving captive tortoise care, always have been, always will be. If I weren't I might think that keeping tortoises on pine shavings, with a plain old light bulb, feeding them grocery store trimmings and only letting them outdoors occasionally was a good idea. But I don't think that way at all. I also don't for one minute think or believe that emulating their wild condition is possible in captivity. Do I believe in keeping them as natural (not to be confused with wild) as possible? To the degree of them remaining safe and healthy, yes, I do. Some things work in captivity, some don't. Some are a good idea, some aren't. It's that simple.

I'm interested to see the long term results of your experiment, I sincerely mean that. If it makes a positive difference I will be one of the first to congratulate you. If I think that it will benefit my tortoises and husbandry methods then I will probably be one of the first to adapt to it too. And I sincerely mean that also. I don't think there are any "experts" in this hobby. Maybe some have more experience, which is not always necessarily good experience either. I still and have always maintained that sucessful captive tortoise care needs to be based on a keeper's knowledge of their tortoises geographic origin, their species requirements and the environment/climate in which their being kept. But the beauty of this hobby are sites like this one where people of all levels, from beginner to old and crusty can share ideas and learn something new.

 

[Tom]

GB, your post is very clear, well-worded, and concise, as usual. I understand your POV completely. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Just like with my other experiments, the results, good or bad will be posted here for all to evaluate and make their own conclusions about what is best for THEIR situation.

 

[GBtortoises]

To be very honest Tom, the fact that you're willing to constantly stick your neck out on this (or any) public forum and say: "I'm going to try this, see what happens and let everyone watch" is applaudable in itself. I tend to do things privately and not share the idea until I know the outcome. Admittedly, your way is much better for everyone here to be able to contribute and to learn from so please don't stop doing what you do.

 

[expiredgummiworm]

-the way i see it-
a tortoise in the wild would rub up against all kinds of plants.
these plants secrete oils...

as long as it is used properly, or even used even more sparingly than recommended couldnt be harmful.

 

[OllieInAZ]

I totally agree.

-the way i see it-
a tortoise in the wild would rub up against all kinds of plants.
these plants secrete oils...

as long as it is used properly, or even used even more sparingly than recommended couldnt be harmful.

 

[Zouave]

Zouave: I've never heard another tortoise keeper say, or said myself that: "If it doesn't happen in the wild then I wouldn't/won't." Nothing could be farther from the truth! If that were the case all of us that supposedly believe that would let our tortoise roam free, with no barriers to keep them in; we wouldn't feed them, we would let them fend for themselves; we wouldn't medicate a sick or injured one, we would let nature take it's course; we wouldn't dig up any eggs and artificially incubate them, we would leave them in the ground and hope for the best; and so on and so on. Your statement is ludicrous and with no basis of truth.

Really? You've NEVER heard or read a statement like that? lol Now who's being ludicrous with no basis in truth?

Incidentally, i think it's very telling that you ignored the first part of my post which dealt with the clogging issue you raised and instead focused on the second part which was off-topic at best and really not directed at you. I think you realized after reading the ingredients that there are no potential hazards and therefore, to save face, attacked the less important part of the post in hopes of invalidating my responses and possibly shutting me up. This is a classic internet forum troll tactic and i've seen it time and again. It won't work on this guy. I also won't continue this line of conversation in this important thread but a response was needed.

@ Tom - Sorry for getting offtopic but i don't suffer trolls. Never have, never will.

 

[dmmj]

Personally I don't think it will harm or benefit the tortoise, but as always I am waiting to see the experiment and see what happens. As for the living aspect of the shell, I have always been told and believed that the shell is more like fingernail (although thick) then bone. The top layers anyways. Like I said I don't really see it harming or helping but I can't wait for the results, either way. Tom is always willing to put his experiments under the microscope for which i am grateful I believe it adds another aspect to tortoise raising, to see them progress under different conditions.

 

[Fernando]

Tom is always willing to put his experiments under the microscope for which i am grateful I believe it adds another aspect to tortoise raising, to see them progress under different conditions.

Ditto +1

 

[Tom]

Here is "Mr. VitaShell". He is one of Chewy and Scooter's babies and came out of the brooder box a couple of days ago. I can tell him from the others because his brown rings around his scutes are a bit darker and thicker. Plus, he'll be the one with the schmutz on his shell. He'll be in a conventional set up with his two siblings and an overhead heat lamp. I have decided NOT to spray his shell several times a day, but I will still spray his siblings. He will still get daily soaks, and they have a humid hide box too. I think this will give us a pretty neat comparison.

And here he is back in his enclosure after his first application of the product. Its just incandescent lighting and that's why the color looks different. As soon as it warms up again I'll get more pics out in the sun.

 

[gmayor]

thats so cute!!! lol...

 

[dmarcus]

That is a nice looking tort...

 

[ChiKat]

Too much cuteness!! Oh my gosh, look at his little face!! Quite possible one of the cutest little babies I have ever seen!!

 

[HLogic]

Tom, if you use the schmutz AND don't spray, you have changed two variables. It may be difficult to determine which contributed to any difference in development by doing so. To isolate the schmutz as a single variable it may be better to recruit another subject for a schmutz + spray regimen so the schmutz can be isolated from the current spray-only regimen. Follow?

 

[Tom]

Tom, if you use the schmutz AND don't spray, you have changed two variables. It may be difficult to determine which contributed to any difference in development by doing so. To isolate the schmutz as a single variable it may be better to recruit another subject for a schmutz + spray regimen so the schmutz can be isolated from the current spray-only regimen. Follow?

Yes. Copy that. There are three hatchlings in the enclosure. I can easily accommodate all three variables.
1. Schmutz only, no spraying.
2. Schmutz AND spraying.
3. No schmutz, but with shell spraying.

These three are clutch mates and all hatched right around the same time. The one thing that I'm afraid will throw off the whole experiment is if one or two of them develop a preference for more time in the humid hide box. At least I have a base line for hatchlings raised in exactly the same way from last year, but all with no schmutz.

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm trying to picture what an online translator is doing to this thread.

 

[dmmj]

I'm lost what's Schmutz?