Walking the line

[MaddieLynn]

From what I've seen, there is a fine line between not providing enough humidity for redfoots (which causes pyramiding) and making things too wet (which causes shell rot). How do you walk the line and make sure your torts have enough humidity without being too wet? How will a wet susbstrate cause shell rot, but misting the tort directly several times a day won't? Can anyone clear this up for me?

Thanks!

 

[HarleyK]

I asked a couple of days ago with a similar Q:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-17503.html

 

[jackrat]

My understanding is that humidity is in the air.I wet my cypress substrate daily,but the top layer quickly dries.The substrate underneath underneath helps keep the humidity up.The moss in their hides stays pretty moist,but not dripping wet.I also run vaporizors to keep it up.When you wet your torts down,they won't stay wet for long.This is just how I do it.Never had any shell rot problems.

 

[matt41gb]

In my opinion the only way to prevent this is to provide adequate ventilation. You can spray as much as you want if you allow the water to evaporate.

-Matt

 

[Madkins007]

Drainage also helps. Using a bottom layer of something coarse- pebbles, bark chips, etc. and a top layer of something light and 'dry' like cypress mulch or orchid bark lets excess moisture drain but also 'percolate' up through the soils to make humidity.

If you are able, adding an actual drain to your tub or container would be helpful as well- take a plastic tub, drill a few small holes, and set it on a lid or shallow pan to catch the run-off.

Control is another element. You can mist the tortoises and surfaces with enough water to moisten them without making a mud puddle.

 

[terryo]

I put a lot of plants in the vivarium. I bury them right in their little pots, and I just water into the pot. The substrate is always dry. I mist the plants, and him, when he comes out to eat, but not as much as I did when he was a baby.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

What we are trying to accomplish is exactly what you're asking about MaddieLynn..

The best situation is a seperate 'room' where you can create "ambient" humidity - so I run a warm-air humidifier in my building when they have to be inside during the colder months.... OTHERWISE those that don't have that situation have to [ sorry ] WORK at it!

Get a substrate like mentioned above that will NOT retain water. NONE of that stuff that come in a brick or bag except cypress or a good hardwood mulch.

I've never used or would recommend any "layered" anything.. especially any type of soil. Humidity from below is still going to come in contact with their plastron.

How well do 'auto-misters' really work???

So cover their humid hide end of the enclosure.. and "spray them 'til they drip" whenever they are not in their hide. They are not going to shrivel-up and die if they don't have 85% humidity under the light where they eat [ which is the ONLY place there should be a light anyway ].. in other words - as long as they have an area where they can hide that has a warm and humid spot to rest.. that's really all that counts!

Spray them by hand OFTEN and provide a dark, warm and humid place for them to hide and the rest of the enclosure can be "bone-dry"!!! I would not tell you wrong...

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

I've never used or would recommend any "layered" anything.. especially any type of soil. Humidity from below is still going to come in contact with their plastron.

NERD

HUMIDITY rising from below is not going to cause a problem- it is a lot different than WETNESS against the plastron- which good drainage avoids. You are going to get rising humidity out of cypress mulch just as much when the lowest layers are damp- and that is OK as long as the top layer is dry.

Layered substrates are with the trouble if you are interested. They offer a lot of benefits, and even more if you bother with a bioactive substrate.

If you don't want to bother with layers, the hardwood mulches certainly do a good job.


(Terry- are you going to update your caresheet to reflect the advice you gave here?)

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I've never used or would recommend any "layered" anything.. especially any type of soil. Humidity from below is still going to come in contact with their plastron.

NERD

HUMIDITY rising from below is not going to cause a problem- it is a lot different than WETNESS against the plastron- which good drainage avoids. You are going to get rising humidity out of cypress mulch just as much when the lowest layers are damp- and that is OK as long as the top layer is dry.

Layered substrates are with the trouble if you are interested. They offer a lot of benefits, and even more if you bother with a bioactive substrate.

If you don't want to bother with layers, the hardwood mulches certainly do a good job.


(Terry- are you going to update your caresheet to reflect the advice you gave here?)

(Terry- are you going to update your caresheet to reflect the advice you gave here?)

Where is that Mark? And how would you like me to state it? Do you want me to include your name in the editing?

 

[terryo]

NErd...after they reach a certain age, do you still have to worry about pyramiding ? Pio is three years old now, so is there a chance that he could still get pyramiding?

 

[cdmay]

NErd...after they reach a certain age, do you still have to worry about pyramiding ? Pio is three years old now, so is there a chance that he could still get pyramiding?

I'm not NErd but---the answer is yes and no. Pio could still develop unnatural growth but it is unlikely that he would become pyramided in the usual sense once he is larger than around 4 or 5 inches. It appears that the issues of humidity and diet do become less of a factor after the first few years.

 

[Madkins007]

Where is that Mark? And how would you like me to state it? Do you want me to include your name in the editing?

You said "So cover their humid hide end of the enclosure.. and "spray them 'til they drip" whenever they are not in their hide. They are not going to shrivel-up and die if they don't have 85% humidity under the light where they eat [ which is the ONLY place there should be a light anyway ].. in other words - as long as they have an area where they can hide that has a warm and humid spot to rest.. that's really all that counts!

Spray them by hand OFTEN and provide a dark, warm and humid place for them to hide and the rest of the enclosure can be "bone-dry"!!! I would not tell you wrong..."


Your site says:
Under Hatchlings- "These tortoises start out as eggs (brilliant observation.. huh?).. in almost muddy soil.
They require high levels of humidity. As soon as these hatchlings are out of the 'nursery'..
and eating on their own.. they are "misted".. while eating as well as in their hide.
This can be accomplished by "misting" with a simple "spray-bottle"
throughout the entire enclosure.. daily.
These little guys do require some care daily!
My adults are most active during a summer rain!
You can't get redfoot tortoises too wet!"

Under 'Juveniles'- "And here with cover removed.. showing "moss" in the dark..
I "mist" the underside of the cover before it is put back in place..
it is literally dripping.. to aid humidity retention!"

This would seem to be saying two different things. I'm just wondering if you will be updating the site to reflect some of the things you have been posting lately?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

NErd...after they reach a certain age, do you still have to worry about pyramiding ? Pio is three years old now, so is there a chance that he could still get pyramiding?

Recently a friend of mine received a book authored by a popular "field-researcher". I had an opportunity to ask particular Q?'s relating to the different "regions" that redfoots are found in. Some were found in barren areas where little or any cover was found.. however the majority of ALL redfoots [ regardless the 'region' ] were found in and around streams and 'forest-type' areas where water was available or more abundant - where a humid 'micro-climate' was present.

In one winter a few of my '05-'06 'keepers' went from perfectly smooth to a little bumpy [ understand that's a relative term by my standards ] because their carapaces were not kept as wet as in past years.

So when Carl says yes and no that means to me - during their early years when they have the most growth it's vital that their carapace is exposed to higher levels of humidity than their 3rd year and beyond.. that's speaking out of the LEFT side of my mouth talking about hatchlings thru 2 year-olds.

Straight-on speaking - it's always best to see to it that their carapace is exposed to a source of humidity EVERY day!

The RIGHT side of my mouth says Juveniles/Sub-adults can become bumpy/not perfectly smooth if not kept in a humid environment.

So walking the line is a true 'observation' for sure.. and then of course there is always exceptions and extremes - a lot of help aren't we?

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

NERD- which book was that? Sounds like maybe Vinke and Vetter's "South American Tortoises"? I really like that one.

Terry O- Ditto CDMay/Carl and Terry/NERD. I have had he unfortunate experience of seeing 4-5" Red-foots go from smooth in the winter pen to bumpy outdoors. I keep thinking I have corrected and compensated for our Nebraska summers, but could not stop the bumps. (Fortunately, since restructuring the herd, I have some time to redo the outdoor pen better than ever before I need it again.)

The bumpiness I got looks like pyramiding with the pointy parts cut off, which leads me to believe that 'pointy' pyramiding starts with babies to get that conical shape. Mine looked OK from some angles, but from others, it is like there was a groove between each scute.