wanting to do it right

[galaxy]

Hi

I'm the proud owner of a beautiful young (9 months old, 6 cm ,50g) marginated tortoise.

I'm leaving in south of Spain and have now setup the outside enclosure on my terrace as it have the most daily sun exposure (see bellow pictures).

Have read most of the information provided on this forum and read most of the articles from tortoisetrust but still have the following questions that I'm sure the specialists in this forum will be able to answer.

1. Could you give constructive critic regarding the enclosure (is something missing, what could be improved...). I tried to replicate various natural subtract found in their natural local environment.
2. In the nature I understand that tortoise will browse for food. Would the fresh flowers be better spread around the enclosure or deposited at a fix feeding spot?
3. I put some dried organic grass in her shelter to keep it warmer over night and no subtract on the floor to keep it drier, is that ok?
4. If it's raining for more than a day I would take her in for the night as she is still small or is it safe to let her out if the temperature is not under 15 C
5. I've a cat that is interesting in the enclosure and curious about the tortoise I read cats are safe is this correct?
6. I added a cuttle fish bone for her calcium needs. Should I crash it in small pieces or even make powder out of it or leave it in one piece for her to pick on it?



Thank you all in advance for your feedback!

 

[Alexio]

Hello , I will try to answer a few of your questions but there are a things I am uncertain of mostly because I am unfamiliar with Europe and its weather and climates.
First what are your average day time temperatures in the sun and in the shade in the enclosure? What is the relative humidity both outside on average and inside the humid huts? Also do you have an enclosure inside and can you provide details about that?

2. I usually deposit the food at a fixed feeding site but there is no reason you can't place different foods in different areas, be sure to use a nice flat stone or tile.
3. I wouldn't bother with the grass as marginated tortoises topically burrow at night and it could mold over time if it gets damp.
4.If she's that young I would take her inside every night anyway at only 50 grams she would be easy pray for anything. And being very damp all night so young would not be wise either.
5. I would keep the cat away. Cats around a fully grown Marginated tortoise would be fine. But you never know it only takes a second. cats are very clever predators. And your tort is very small.
6. I wouldn't bother with the cuttlebone yet, I have a few in mine and they all ignore it. After a year or two you can add it. It doesn't hurt to leave it in though as they can use it to grind their beak down. You can use a calcium power supplement or grind the bone down, its the same thing. I have the power and the main ingredient is cuttlebone. I would only add once or twice a week to food max. And depending on what your diet is like it may be unnecessary.

It's a really nice enclosure and I'm jealous I don't have something nice like that outside. The stones are nice but just make sure there are none that she can swallow , tiny rocks can cause impactions in Tortoises. Also make sure she can't climb out on the sides Marginated can be very good climbers as they originated on hill and mountain sides.

 

[Sara G.]

I don't have a Margie so I'm not entirely sure if this is correct but from what I understand is that sand is a pretty big no-no for torts. This is because of them possibly ingesting some and becoming impacted from it.
Personally, I'd just stick to coco coir or whatever dirt substrate you've got in there. And if you wanted different surfaces you could always put in larger rocks for your tort to walk on. I'd make sure they're bigger than the head of your baby though, anything smaller could get eaten as mentioned.

The enclosure really does look super pretty and I'm totally jealous! I wish mine looked that natural!!!

 

[galaxy]

Dear Alexio, Dear Sara

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions.

@Alexio: The temperature does not go below 15C at night and max 35C during the day from February till November , humidity is permanently between 60% and 70%. In the sun the temperature can go well over 50C in Summer. During the winter night temperature can be as low as 2C and day temperature at 15C while on nice days temperature goes up to 22 even 25.

I do not have a winter outside enclosure yet I'll start building it once the Summer enclosure is finished.

My main goal is to replicate their local natural environments. I do not plan on setting up an inside enclosure with warming lamps etc. I'll try to keep it more natural if ever possible and let her decide if she want to hibernate or not. I'll provide for additional warming through a bulb and solar panel inside her shelter and leave an access to the outside enclosure for day time. The marginated tortoise leave in the wild in my area and I strongly believe that providing a safe natural environment should make her adapt to the local climate and by that getting stronger everyday.

To Do based on your recommendations: I will remove the the smallest stones and add some lose organic orchid subtract instead of the sand even so she seems to enjoy walking in it and the foot prints are beautiful to watch. I'll make the walls higher and keep the cat out of the enclosure.

Thanks again!

 

[Sara G.]

The only comment I could have to make is I don't think it's a good idea to have a hatchling and not provide warming lamps, etc. for them.
Especially when having a new baby hibernation shouldn't be attempted for a while (at least a year+).
I'm not sure who here has experience directly with this species. Perhaps @Will @YvonneG or @Tom might know of someone who can provide more helpful suggestions.

 

[galaxy]

@Sara G. Thank you for the comment. I'll research more deeply on the subject. I've time until coming November to come up with the proper solution. It might even be that turtoise in the region do not even hibernate! I'll seek advise from other forum members on the subject.

 

[tglazie]

Hi galaxy. Cute tortoise. I've been keeping marginated tortoises for close to two decades now, and I've been keeping tortoises for well over three decades, ever since my old man introduced me to the hobby. I mean no offense when I say this, but there are some serious flaws in your setup. First off, you have no protection from predators in your outdoor enclosure. You say you're on a terrace, which I assume means you live in an apartment above the ground level. This ensures that most mammalian predators won't be a problem (with the exception of the cat, which I will get into in a minute), but this will not stop the crows. Aerial predators are a serious concern for a 50 gram hatchling, and make no mistake, they will go after your baby at the slightest opportunity. Given that the back of my property is surrounded by trees and covered by tortoise watering bowls, birds consider my area something of a hot spot, and I've seen more than my fair share of doves and squirrels taken by one of three resident hawks, and I've regularly seen these same hawks swooping low over my hatchling enclosures, seeking for a means of access to the babes' predator proofed, screen topped enclosures. Here's a good example of one done by canvassemonkey on turtle forum: http://s782.photobucket.com/user/canvasseamonkey/media/Pen.jpg.html

Yours doesn't have to be as elaborate as this. I constructed mine from four two by one inch pieces of wood held together by eight thin slats of flooring material, covered by a screen mesh. There are all sorts of options for anti-predator cover, but a kiddo of that size definitely needs protection. Once your margie grows past five inches (13 cm), the risk of an aerial attack goes down considerably. Since you live in a city, I wouldn't imagine you have to deal with many mammalian threats, but I'm not familiar with what toothy, milk drinking beasts roam about southern Spain, so I would research this topic to take precautions before something happens. This is especially important if your terrace is on the ground level.

As for keeping the baby outdoors during the winter, I must highly advise against this. If you want to hibernate your tortoise, do so indoors, in a small refrigerator, where temperatures can be maintained at 40 F (4C) to 45 F (7 C). This will also allow you to monitor and weigh the animal through the hibernation process, so that if you notice a marked drop in weight loss or signs of dehydration, you can act quickly to bring the tortoise into a wakeful state. Allowing a tortoise outdoors in winter allows none of these advantages, given that temperatures tend to fluctuate wildly outdoors, tortoises don't take well to being disturbed (if disturbing them is even possible without destroying their hiding place), and there's the serious risk of predators, in the case of the outdoor hibernaculum, rats.

Now, I hate rats. It is one of the biggest reasons I love large constrictor snakes and cats, because these beasts will offer up rats the end they rightly deserve. Rats are some of the biggest jerks in the animal kingdom. They spread fleas, bite sleeping children for reason other than the fact that they're mean rats, and can squeeze or chew through virtually any obstruction. I absolutely hate them. Yes, my hatred of rats is incredibly irrational, but as a tortoise keeper, I feel it has served me well. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, rats are a very serious threat in general, especially during the winter months when they are cold, hungry, and desperate. Rats can climb any structure that isn't glass, and in the winter time, they will find a tortoise burrow very inviting and the fresh meat inside even more so. For this reason, I've never allowed tortoises outdoors during the winter, and when it comes to babies, I always bring them indoors at night. When the tortoises get older, I don't keep them in predator proof enclosures, which allows access to cats, who will hunt down and murder any rat stupid enough to step onto my property.

This brings me to the cats, and my love/caution relationship with them and my tortoises. Cats are great. Sure, they are destroying the environment in many places by turning into feral, lizard murdering, bird massacring monsters, but if your cat is fixed and kept within the bounds of one's property, they are an excellent check against rats and other small vermin that can infiltrate your property. However, cats also kill young tortoises. I speak to this from experience. A good friend of mine bought three baby sulcata tortoises about ten years back. Despite my warnings, he didn't put a cover over his tortoises. Three days after he acquired his new kids, he put them out in the morning to enjoy a few hours of sunlight. He returned on his lunch break to put the kids indoors, and he discovered that his cat Lucy had violently murdered and dismembered all three of the kiddos. He was so horrified by the incident that he almost took Lucy to get put down, until he resigned himself to the fact that the fault was his own. Lucy is a predator. She was just doing what predators do. If we are to take responsibility for these animals, it is on us to protect them.

I admire your striving to keep this animal in a natural state, but keep in mind that keeping the animals at all is entirely unnatural by the strictest definitions. Also, nature is cruel, and filled with predators that have evolved over millions of years to kill anything below them on the food chain. Now, natural food, environments that balance naturalness and safety, this I support 100%.

Back to the subject of hibernation, I, personally, wouldn't hibernate your youngster until he/she grows to at least four inches (10 cm). This is entirely up to you, but youngsters are, in my opinion, much more sensitive than their adult and juvenile counterparts. However, this is definitely debatable, given that I've never lost a tortoise in hibernation (thank goodness), nor do I know anyone personally who has. I have read some posts by forum members who have lost animals in hibernation, and these members are usually the ones who argue most stridently against hibernation in general. But once again, this has always been a heated topic. Me, I believe hibernation is beneficial, given that I, like you, wish to replicate much of the natural experience of being a tortoise. However, given the risks involved, I tend to prefer as controlled a method as possible.

I hope this addresses some of your concerns. Regarding the housing setup in general, I tend to house my tortoises on topsoil only. Topsoil is great, given that you can grow things in it. Any number of shallow rooted weeds can be planted. All of my baby enclosures are planted with clover, dichondra, and other low growing graze (low growing is important, given that you don't want your baby getting lost in the weeds). As far as dryness goes, marginated tortoises tend not to like it very dry. They do come from a peninsula, after all, and during the warm, dry Mediterranean summer, they tend to aestivate a great deal. The climate of southern Spain should reflect this, though I speak of this only theoretically. I've never actually been to southern Spain. But one thing I've always enjoyed about the margies is their adaptability. I live in South Texas, which is a pretty harsh place when it comes to the fickle nature of our weather. In just the past month, I've had days that were in the mid sixties (18 C) for a high, days in the mid nineties (35 C), and every form of precipitation possible within those extremes, even suffered through three hours of golf ball sized hale. All through this, my adult colony fared exceedingly well. My largest, Big Gino, seems positively exhuberant any time it rains, to the point that I have to bar his exiting his enclosure during overnight downpours. Light or dark, he doesn't care. He smells rain, he has to go dance in it.

T.G.

 

[galaxy]

@tglazie: I really really appreciate your comments and advises and I'll make sure to add additional protections on top of my current enclosure. I chose the terrace on the first floor for longer sun exposition during the day as well as for security against predators.

I'll move the enclosure to the garden once the tortoise get older and reach 12 to 15 cm as to your advised.

I ordered some weeds to be planted into the enclosure which should increase the humidity.

Regarding hibernation do you think the tortoise will even try to hibernate if her shelter is kept at a temperature above 20C and she get the possibility to access the current outside enclosure during the winter days when outside temperature can rise to 22-25C? We have around 20 rainy days and seldom 2 to 3 rainy days in a row. Maybe she would enjoy to walk out during sunny days and feel warm enough in her shelter to not hibernate? What would actually happen in the wild? The nights are never below 0 and mostly around 5 to 9 degrees Celsius while the cold days are constantly between 15C and 25C. Would they in those conditions even hibernate or just bury for the night and browse around during the day?

Thanks again for your help

 

[tglazie]

Regarding hibernation, it is difficult to say what a tortoise will do. Knowledge of wild behavior regarding hibernation is scant, to say the least. I can speak from the experience of this one gentleman who owned a reptile shop where I bought mice for my snakes over a decade ago. He decided to start a colony of Russian tortoises, and he decided to pick my brain on the subject, given that I had fostered a couple Russians at that time. He provided them with a spacious outdoor enclosure with natural graze, the works. The one thing he didn't do was setup an indoor hibernation fridge. That first year, he lost all of his females. The problem was that they were burrowing down during the cold spells, walking about in the warm spells, and often neglecting to bed down during the returning cold. I feel the stress on their bodies must have been too much. Also, I figure tortoises must die in the wild from exposure more than many folks might care to admit.

Regardless, your idea could work, so long as you bring the tortoise indoors into a properly heated indoor environment whenever the temperature drops and the sun doesn't shine.

T.G.

 

[galaxy]

Regarding hibernation, it is difficult to say what a tortoise will do. Knowledge of wild behavior regarding hibernation is scant, to say the least. I can speak from the experience of this one gentleman who owned a reptile shop where I bought mice for my snakes over a decade ago. He decided to start a colony of Russian tortoises, and he decided to pick my brain on the subject, given that I had fostered a couple Russians at that time. He provided them with a spacious outdoor enclosure with natural graze, the works. The one thing he didn't do was setup an indoor hibernation fridge. That first year, he lost all of his females. The problem was that they were burrowing down during the cold spells, walking about in the warm spells, and often neglecting to bed down during the returning cold. I feel the stress on their bodies must have been too much. Also, I figure tortoises must die in the wild from exposure more than many folks might care to admit.

Regardless, your idea could work, so long as you bring the tortoise indoors into a properly heated indoor environment whenever the temperature drops and the sun doesn't shine.

T.G.

Do you think I would need to bring the tortoise insight manually or she would do it indistinctly and move from outside to outside heated enclosure by herself when ever she feels like it?

 

[JoesMum]

Unless temperatures drop below 10C consistently, your tort won't hibernate. As days shorten and cool, your tort will slow down probably, but that's not a problem. Even those kept entirely indoors seem to do it.

Do you think I would need to bring the tortoise insight manually or she would do it indistinctly and move from outside to outside heated enclosure by herself when ever she feels like it?

Tortoises are brilliant at finding warmth! That doesn't mean they won't go out in the wet and cold, and they'll probably enjoy it, but doing so doesn't necessarily harm them.

What harms a tort is prolonged wet and cold. Having the odd bad day happens in the wild and doesn't cause problems for an otherwise healthy tortoise.

 

[galaxy]

Unless temperatures drop below 10C consistently, your tort won't hibernate. As days shorten and cool, your tort will slow down probably, but that's not a problem. Even those kept entirely indoors seem to do it.



Tortoises are brilliant at finding warmth! That doesn't mean they won't go out in the wet and cold, and they'll probably enjoy it, but doing so doesn't necessarily harm them.

What harms a tort is prolonged wet and cold. Having the odd bad day happens in the wild and doesn't cause problems for an otherwise healthy tortoise.

Great! Then I'll just make sure they have a dry warm hide out and let her decide where to spend her days and nights.

 

[JoesMum]

Great! Then I'll just make sure they have a dry warm hide out and let her decide where to spend her days and nights.

I reserve the right to overrule Joe at night. If I disagree with him, I wait until he has cooled down and then move him to his cold frame.

(See this thread
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/outdoor-accommodation-in-a-colder-uk-climate.140866/)