What locale do you think?

wccmog10

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Most of my tortoise experience has pertained to African and Asian species, but recently I got a few redfoot tortoises. I think I have a “regular” and a cherry head. I was able to find a few other threads where people asked this question, and they were very informative, but I do not want to pretend to be a redfoot expert, so I want to get the opinions of those with more experience keeping this species. The first one is a yearling, he/she was hatched in 2018, I believe it to be a normal redfoot. I know the person who hatched it, and the parents look normal as well. The second one was hatched in 2019, and was received from an unknown person. It was not advertised as a cherry head redfoot, but as soon as I got it in my hands I noticed the red on the neck and head. At first I thought it was just a redfoot with good color, then I found that the cherry heads have the darker plastrons. So I think it might be a cherry head redfoot.

So what does everyone think? Normal or cherry head?

Yearling:
upload_2019-6-28_7-20-35.jpeg
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Hatchling: upload_2019-6-28_7-21-35.jpeg upload_2019-6-28_7-24-28.jpeg

upload_2019-6-28_7-24-9.jpeg
 

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method89

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i say both "just" redfoots... but thats only from looking at tons of pictures of both cherry heads and regular redfoots, no real experience
 

Robber

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Most northern redfoots have red heads as babies and it slowly turns more orange and(usually) yellow. The plastron is not nearly as dark as a pure Brazilian specimen, so probably just a different variation of a normal Northern type. Good looking animals
 

domalle

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Most of my tortoise experience has pertained to African and Asian species, but recently I got a few redfoot tortoises. I think I have a “regular” and a cherry head. I was able to find a few other threads where people asked this question, and they were very informative, but I do not want to pretend to be a redfoot expert, so I want to get the opinions of those with more experience keeping this species. The first one is a yearling, he/she was hatched in 2018, I believe it to be a normal redfoot. I know the person who hatched it, and the parents look normal as well. The second one was hatched in 2019, and was received from an unknown person. It was not advertised as a cherry head redfoot, but as soon as I got it in my hands I noticed the red on the neck and head. At first I thought it was just a redfoot with good color, then I found that the cherry heads have the darker plastrons. So I think it might be a cherry head redfoot.

So what does everyone think? Normal or cherry head?

Yearling:
View attachment 275546
View attachment 275544 View attachment 275545

Hatchling: View attachment 275549 View attachment 275552

View attachment 275551

The first is mostly Northern Redfoot but because of the less distinct dark markings on the otherwise almost pristine plastron,
I suspect this is a blended tortoise.
The second is especially so, clear evidence of Cherryhead involvement from the uniformity of red coloration over the head and limbs
to the dark patterning on the plastron.
And of course, the prominent red scale on the forelimb in the elbow region.
 

ZEROPILOT

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The first is mostly Northern Redfoot but because of the less distinct dark markings on the otherwise almost pristine plastron,
I suspect this is a blended tortoise.
The second is especially so, clear evidence of Cherryhead involvement from the uniformity of red coloration over the head and limbs
to the dark patterning on the plastron.
And of course, the prominent red scale on the forelimb in the elbow region.
So, Hybrids?
 

Michael231

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The first definitely looks like a northern red foot. While in the north of the range the species does differ even further (I.e. specimens in the Guyana’s tend to have different colors compared to specimens in Colombia, Panama, and Venezuela) it is hard to tell exactly where it came from based on the fact it is a hatchling and its adult colors haven’t come in.

The second could definitely be a cherry head hybrid, as the true cherry heads I’ve seen have very dark plastra that extend to the edge of the plastron on each scute. Cherryheads also have characteristic seam marbling as they grow (the seams between the plates of the carapace become almost an ivory color). I’m not sure if this is expressed in hatchlings or not, but from specimens I’ve seen I don’t believe it generally is.

Lastly, I tend to refrain from calling cherryheads Brazilian redfoots, as it hasn’t been confirmed if or where in Brazil they occur. A scientist from Europe did document some very bright individuals from somewhere in Brazil (I believe in the northern section of the country), but beyond this I’m not aware of any other precise wild cherryheads records in the wild of Brazil or anywhere else.

Cheers! Hopefully someone can build off of this!
 

domalle

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So, Hybrids?

@ZEROPILOT @wccmog10

A hybrid is the offspring of two different species, varieties, races, breeds or genera of plant or animal. The dictionary also allows that a hybrid (or crossbreed) is a cross between two varieties or breeds within the same species. Since the different forms of Red-Footed tortoise are lumped taxonomically into one species, Chelonoidis carbonarius, the discussion becomes academic.. And confusing. Confusing because many forms of Redfoot are morphologically distinct and cry out for differentiation into, at the very least, subspecies designation, if not full species status. This is true most notably for the so-called Cherryhead Redfoot which originates in and around Bahia State in eastern Brazil. The large Chacoan Redfoot forms in Bolivia and Paraguay also deserve consideration for special status.

The definition of species is simply whether an organism can successfully produce fertile offspring by sexual union. Redfoots interbreed indiscriminately among some of the different forms and are therefore considered a single species despite the obvious morphological differences.

The OPs first specimen, while ostensibly the Northern Redfoot form, lacks the typical Northern's dark hourglass (some call airplane figure) markings on the mid and hind plastron. Barely visible radiating lines emanating from the plastral midline of the otherwise immaculate plastron suggest blending or intermingling of two different forms in this case. We can't say exactly which due to the lengthy history of interbreeding in captive animals and the lack of systematic scientific study in countries of origin, or even what the countries of origin are, due to the widespread dispersal of these animals around the world in the pet trade.

Cherryhead Redfoots are, in the majority, uniform in color across the individual animal. The colored scales, and in some cases skin, of the Cherryhead Redfoot can range through red, orange, pink, coral and anywhere in between. Whatever the color is in the individual, it is consistent with no variation across the animal if, in fact, it is pure bred. The second specimen seems more Cherryhead than anything else. But something about it doesn't say pure bred. Interesting and pretty turtle though.

The variation in color in what we in the US call a 'normal' Redfoot is generally yellow, orange, or yellow on the top of the head, orange on the side in concert with the red legs, hence the common name Redfoot or Red-Footed tortoise, even though there are all yellow specimens of the Red-Footed tortoise with yellow legs. This of course has contributed to the historic confusion and misidentification with the Yellow-Footed tortoise, a closely related although very dissimilar tortoise occupying some of the same territories.

The use of the term 'normal' to describe the Redfoot in the US was because these animals were one of the first 'turtles' imported as a replacement in the pet trade, and the first we became familiar with, after the 1970s Federal ban for public health reasons on the sale of the Red-eared Slider, Trachemys scripta elegans.

At any rate most Redfoots have some combination of color variation across the scale and skin parts of the animal.This is unlike the Yellowfoot tortoise, Chelonoidis denticulatus, which, like the Cherryhead Redfoot tortoise in this single aspect, shows uniformity of color across the animal. The Yellowfoot is a consistent shade of yellow or orange across the parts of the individual animal.

The Yellowfoot and Redfoot continue to be misidentified and confused even in their home countries, zoos and museums.
The one most consistent character and best determiner if a close call is the inguinal or groin scute. The Redfoot's inguinal scute is enlarged and pronounced while the Yellowfoot's is reduced. A side by side comparison of the underside of both animals will make this quite clear.

But I digress (multiple times I suspect).
In a personal communication from Peter Pritchard in 1986 when the Cherryhead Redfoot first appeared here, he reported, and I quote, "that the red-footed tortoise is so variable a species that almost any color variation may occur eventually."
 

wccmog10

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This is all great information. Thank you everyone for sharing. I am of course very excited to have both of them- no matter where they originated. My main objective was to try and keep some semblance of order when it comes to locale. As I said in the original post- this is my first endeavor into redfoots and I’m working towards having a group of 3-5 individuals. Of course I am sure that most redfoots in the captive pet trade are some percentage of several locales as mentioned. I especially appreciate the in depth posts with specific information @domalle @Michael231.
 

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@ZEROPILOT @wccmog10

A hybrid is the offspring of two different species, varieties, races, breeds or genera of plant or animal. The dictionary also allows that a hybrid (or crossbreed) is a cross between two varieties or breeds within the same species. Since the different forms of Red-Footed tortoise are lumped taxonomically into one species, Chelonoidis carbonarius, the discussion becomes academic.. And confusing. Confusing because many forms of Redfoot are morphologically distinct and cry out for differentiation into, at the very least, subspecies designation, if not full species status. This is true most notably for the so-called Cherryhead Redfoot which originates in and around Bahia State in eastern Brazil. The large Chacoan Redfoot forms in Bolivia and Paraguay also deserve consideration for special status.

The definition of species is simply whether an organism can successfully produce fertile offspring by sexual union. Redfoots interbreed indiscriminately among some of the different forms and are therefore considered a single species despite the obvious morphological differences.

The OPs first specimen, while ostensibly the Northern Redfoot form, lacks the typical Northern's dark hourglass (some call airplane figure) markings on the mid and hind plastron. Barely visible radiating lines emanating from the plastral midline of the otherwise immaculate plastron suggest blending or intermingling of two different forms in this case. We can't say exactly which due to the lengthy history of interbreeding in captive animals and the lack of systematic scientific study in countries of origin, or even what the countries of origin are, due to the widespread dispersal of these animals around the world in the pet trade.

Cherryhead Redfoots are, in the majority, uniform in color across the individual animal. The colored scales, and in some cases skin, of the Cherryhead Redfoot can range through red, orange, pink, coral and anywhere in between. Whatever the color is in the individual, it is consistent with no variation across the animal if, in fact, it is pure bred. The second specimen seems more Cherryhead than anything else. But something about it doesn't say pure bred. Interesting and pretty turtle though.

The variation in color in what we in the US call a 'normal' Redfoot is generally yellow, orange, or yellow on the top of the head, orange on the side in concert with the red legs, hence the common name Redfoot or Red-Footed tortoise, even though there are all yellow specimens of the Red-Footed tortoise with yellow legs. This of course has contributed to the historic confusion and misidentification with the Yellow-Footed tortoise, a closely related although very dissimilar tortoise occupying some of the same territories.

The use of the term 'normal' to describe the Redfoot in the US was because these animals were one of the first 'turtles' imported as a replacement in the pet trade, and the first we became familiar with, after the 1970s Federal ban for public health reasons on the sale of the Red-eared Slider, Trachemys scripta elegans.

At any rate most Redfoots have some combination of color variation across the scale and skin parts of the animal.This is unlike the Yellowfoot tortoise, Chelonoidis denticulatus, which, like the Cherryhead Redfoot tortoise in this single aspect, shows uniformity of color across the animal. The Yellowfoot is a consistent shade of yellow or orange across the parts of the individual animal.

The Yellowfoot and Redfoot continue to be misidentified and confused even in their home countries, zoos and museums.
The one most consistent character and best determiner if a close call is the inguinal or groin scute. The Redfoot's inguinal scute is enlarged and pronounced while the Yellowfoot's is reduced. A side by side comparison of the underside of both animals will make this quite clear.

But I digress (multiple times I suspect).
In a personal communication from Peter Pritchard in 1986 when the Cherryhead Redfoot first appeared here, he reported, and I quote, "that the red-footed tortoise is so variable a species that almost any color variation may occur eventually."
Thank you for taking the time to try to clarify this question.
So without keepers trying to only breed tortoises of the same locale and with the same traits, all traits that differentiate the separate types may eventually be lost. Ending up with Redfoot tortoises with any and all traits popping up at random, becoming common, or disappearing altogether.
At one point I posted about keeping Cherryheads with my orange " Northerns". Someone from the forum mentioned the issue with mixing and said it with such conviction that I actually didn't do it. It made me rethink.
It IS important I suppose to do what we can to keep some sort of purity. But it's difficult when the mixed Redfoot tortoises look so fantastic. (And are otherwise perfectly healthy)
There is a real market for such an animal and since these are not actually Hybrids and are able to reproduce. I suspect we're going to see much more of them.
 

Toddrickfl1

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Most of my tortoise experience has pertained to African and Asian species, but recently I got a few redfoot tortoises. I think I have a “regular” and a cherry head. I was able to find a few other threads where people asked this question, and they were very informative, but I do not want to pretend to be a redfoot expert, so I want to get the opinions of those with more experience keeping this species. The first one is a yearling, he/she was hatched in 2018, I believe it to be a normal redfoot. I know the person who hatched it, and the parents look normal as well. The second one was hatched in 2019, and was received from an unknown person. It was not advertised as a cherry head redfoot, but as soon as I got it in my hands I noticed the red on the neck and head. At first I thought it was just a redfoot with good color, then I found that the cherry heads have the darker plastrons. So I think it might be a cherry head redfoot.

So what does everyone think? Normal or cherry head?

Yearling:
View attachment 275546
View attachment 275544 View attachment 275545

Hatchling: View attachment 275549 View attachment 275552

View attachment 275551
The second one has unique coloring, very cool.
 

ZEROPILOT

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This is all great information. Thank you everyone for sharing. I am of course very excited to have both of them- no matter where they originated. My main objective was to try and keep some semblance of order when it comes to locale. As I said in the original post- this is my first endeavor into redfoots and I’m working towards having a group of 3-5 individuals. Of course I am sure that most redfoots in the captive pet trade are some percentage of several locales as mentioned. I especially appreciate the in depth posts with specific information @domalle @Michael231.
I'd be proud to own either.
They are beautiful.
My post is in no way bashing you or your tortoises.
Sorry that the issue side tracked your thread.
 

domalle

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Thank you for taking the time to try to clarify this question.
So without keepers trying to only breed tortoises of the same locale and with the same traits, all traits that differentiate the separate types may eventually be lost. Ending up with Redfoot tortoises with any and all traits popping up at random, becoming common, or disappearing altogether.
At one point I posted about keeping Cherryheads with my orange " Northerns". Someone from the forum mentioned the issue with mixing and said it with such conviction that I actually didn't do it. It made me rethink.
It IS important I suppose to do what we can to keep some sort of purity. But it's difficult when the mixed Redfoot tortoises look so fantastic. (And are otherwise perfectly healthy)
There is a real market for such an animal and since these are not actually Hybrids and are able to reproduce. I suspect we're going to see much more of them.

Well said.
 

wccmog10

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I'd be proud to own either.
They are beautiful.
My post is in no way bashing you or your tortoises.
Sorry that the issue side tracked your thread.

There was no side tracking. I was asking everyone’s opinion on their locales for this reason- wanting to try and keep “northerns” with “northerns” and “cherryheads” with “cherryheads.”
 

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