Why are pine shavings bad substrate ?

[WalterSulcata]

Hello,
I always see pine shavings as a bad substrate listed. I have been using it for 4 years, and just always wanted to know why people think its harmful. The shavings are untreated, super super cheap compared to everything else, the torts dont digest it because the shavings are the larger type, its soft to walk on, just curious. To give an example of cost , it cost me $8 to fill a tortoise table for a year in pine shavings, and about $250 for orchid bark. So, I must be missing something.

 

[Tom]

Hello,
I always see pine shavings as a bad substrate listed. I have been using it for 4 years, and just always wanted to know why people think its harmful. The shavings are untreated, super super cheap compared to everything else, the torts dont digest it because the shavings are the larger type, its soft to walk on, just curious. To give an example of cost , it cost me $8 to fill a tortoise table for a year in pine shavings, and about $250 for orchid bark. So, I must be missing something.

1. They are too dry and dusty. Tortoises, especially growing babies, need damp substrate. You can't keep pine shavings damp. Not even a little bit.
2. When pine shavings get wet they mold.
3. If someone uses the wrong type that is not kiln dried, the fumes are toxic.
4. It's great that you have not had an impaction problem, but other people have. It's a big risk that is not worth taking because other better substrates exist. I have this same argument with people that use sand.
5. Some people, many people, confuse pine shavings with cedar shavings. That could be a deadly mistake.

I fill a tortoise table with orchid bark for $11 for a 2.0 cubic foot bag, so someone is overcharging you by a lot.

I used aspen shavings, Sani-Chips, and pine shavings decades ago, and my tortoises didn't die either. I also used rabbit pellets, compressed grass bedding pellets, grass hay, straw, soil and sand. I realized why all of those weren't suitable and began to make better choices. You should too.

 

[WalterSulcata]

1. They are too dry and dusty. Tortoises, especially growing babies, need damp substrate. You can't keep pine shavings damp. Not even a little bit.
2. When pine shavings get wet they mold.
3. If someone uses the wrong type that is not kiln dried, the fumes are toxic.
4. It's great that you have not had an impaction problem, but other people have. It's a big risk that is not worth taking because other better substrates exist. I have this same argument with people that use sand.
5. Some people, many people, confuse pine shavings with cedar shavings. That could be a deadly mistake.

I fill a tortoise table with orchid bark for $11 for a 2.0 cubic foot bag, so someone is overcharging you by a lot.

I used aspen shavings, Sani-Chips, and pine shavings decades ago, and my tortoises didn't die either. I also used rabbit pellets, compressed grass bedding pellets, grass hay, straw, soil and sand. I realized why all of those weren't suitable and began to make better choices. You should too.

May I ask where you get your orchid bark ? Thanks.

 

[Tom]

May I ask where you get your orchid bark ? Thanks.

I get it at a local nursery here in my town. @Markw84 is able to find the same exact brand where he lives up in Northern CA. It's harder to find in other parts of the country. I can ship it to people, but the cost ends up being similar to what you'd pay for the same amount in 24 quart bags from Chewy or Petco.com after paying for the shipping.


@Yvonne G found a local nursery near her that drops a load of into your pick up truck for a fraction of what I pay for the big bulk bags.

Where are you @WalterSulcata ? There is no location in your avatar info. Orchid bark is usually findable for people on the west coast. People on the east coast often have an easier time finding cheap cypress mulch. I don't like it as well as the orchid bark, but I've heard reports of 2.0 cu.ft. bags for $2 or $3 at Home Depot. Its probably gone up since then, but even at twice that price, its still a bargain for a tortoise keeper.

 

[WalterSulcata]

I get it at a local nursery here in my town. @Markw84 is able to find the same exact brand where he lives up in Northern CA. It's harder to find in other parts of the country. I can ship it to people, but the cost ends up being similar to what you'd pay for the same amount in 24 quart bags from Chewy or Petco.com after paying for the shipping.
View attachment 383850

@Yvonne G found a local nursery near her that drops a load of into your pick up truck for a fraction of what I pay for the big bulk bags.

Where are you @WalterSulcata ? There is no location in your avatar info. Orchid bark is usually findable for people on the west coast. People on the east coast often have an easier time finding cheap cypress mulch. I don't like it as well as the orchid bark, but I've heard reports of 2.0 cu.ft. bags for $2 or $3 at Home Depot. Its probably gone up since then, but even at twice that price, its still a bargain for a tortoise keeper.

Maybe thats the problem, . I live in SW black hills, South Dakota, in the middle of pine forest and cattle, very few orchids or plants, but pine shavings seem to be used for every animal here. I will continue to shop around for the orchid, but it looks like my only option is online, as there is none locally. Thank you.

 

[turtlesteve]

Can you get pine bark? That’s what I have used for almost a decade now and I can attest it works fine. Orchid bark / fir bark is really a west coast thing and it is very expensive and hard to find elsewhere if you need more than a trivial amount.

 

[Tom]

Maybe thats the problem, . I live in SW black hills, South Dakota, in the middle of pine forest and cattle, very few orchids or plants, but pine shavings seem to be used for every animal here. I will continue to shop around for the orchid, but it looks like my only option is online, as there is none locally. Thank you.

South Dakota? How can you see the cows and pine trees through all the snow???

HA! Just kidding...

 

[wellington]

Maybe thats the problem, . I live in SW black hills, South Dakota, in the middle of pine forest and cattle, very few orchids or plants, but pine shavings seem to be used for every animal here. I will continue to shop around for the orchid, but it looks like my only option is online, as there is none locally. Thank you.

Look for the cypress mulch. I'm in Chicago and can't find a reasonable price for orchid bark either. My nurseries sell mostly pine or cedar.

 

[wellington]

Can you get pine bark? That’s what I have used for almost a decade now and I can attest it works fine. Orchid bark / fir bark is really a west coast thing and it is very expensive and hard to find elsewhere if you need more than a trivial amount.

That's not recommended. Read Toms posts.

 

[turtlesteve]

That's not recommended. Read Toms posts.

LOL. I’ve been on here a while, and read all of those posts - some more than once. Any issues I’ve seen raised on pine bark are not really valid. Like orchid bark, it is very mold resistant. It also does not have a strong odor or resin content, at least not the types sold here.

I do think orchid bark is slightly better, but I use a lot of it and it’s just not available in bulk or affordable.

My opinion:

Orchid bark (same as fir bark) - premium option, will not mold or decompose for years

Pine bark - 2nd best in my opinion. Mold resistant. Holds moisture almost as well. It will very gradually break down into smaller pieces.

Cypress mulch - 3rd option, useable, won’t mold or decompose but holds less moisture. It also has a lot of long splintery bits which I dislike.

Pine or cedar wood shavings - do not use.

 

[wellington]

LOL. I’ve been on here a while, and read all of those posts - some more than once. Any issues I’ve seen raised on pine bark are not really valid. Like orchid bark, it is very mold resistant. It also does not have a strong odor or resin content, at least not the types sold here.

I do think orchid bark is slightly better, but I use a lot of it and it’s just not available in bulk or affordable.

My opinion:

Orchid bark (same as fir bark) - premium option, will not mold or decompose for years

Pine bark - 2nd best in my opinion. Mold resistant. Holds moisture almost as well. It will very gradually break down into smaller pieces.

Cypress mulch - 3rd option, useable, won’t mold or decompose but holds less moisture. It also has a lot of long splintery bits which I dislike.

Pine or cedar wood shavings - do not use.

I didn't mean all his posts, I just meant the ones in this thread, lol
The OP asked about pine and why it shouldn't be used.

 

[Tom]

I didn't mean all his posts, I just meant the ones in this thread, lol
The OP asked about pine and why it shouldn't be used.

OP asked about pine shavings. I don't have any experience using pine bark, but it seems that is also what is used in the UK, in addition to Steve's experience.

For future reference, Steve is as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable about tortoise stuff as anyone on here, including me for sure. He has tons experience with many species, he is very intelligent, and he has succeeded with species that most others fail with. I've met and hung out with him and the guy knows his stuff. He's one of the people I reach out to when I have questions about tortoise stuff that I can't answer myself, and I'm lucky that he chooses to answer.

If he says his pine bark works, I believe him. If I lived in that part of the world and couldn't find orchid bark, I would take his recommendation without a second thought.

 

[wellington]

OP asked about pine shavings. I don't have any experience using pine bark, but it seems that is also what is used in the UK, in addition to Steve's experience.

For future reference, Steve is as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable about tortoise stuff as anyone on here, including me for sure. He has tons experience with many species, he is very intelligent, and he has succeeded with species that most others fail with. I've met and hung out with him and the guy knows his stuff. He's one of the people I reach out to when I have questions about tortoise stuff that I can't answer myself, and I'm lucky that he chooses to answer.

If he says his pine bark works, I believe him. If I lived in that part of the world and couldn't find orchid bark, I would take his recommendation without a second thought.

Why wouldn't pine bark and pine shavings be the same when it comes to toxins? They come from the same tree, just different parts.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Can you get pine bark? That’s what I have used for almost a decade now and I can attest it works fine. Orchid bark / fir bark is really a west coast thing and it is very expensive and hard to find elsewhere if you need more than a trivial amount.

I thought pine is toxic to torts...

 

[Tom]

Why wouldn't pine bark and pine shavings be the same when it comes to toxins? They come from the same tree, just different parts.

Fair question. I think it is because of how they are processed. Pine shavings do not emit toxic fumes because they are "kiln dried". But not all types and all brands are kiln dried, so some pine shavings would still be problematic. Does your average pet owner know the difference and even know that there is a difference.

As I said, I've never used pine bark and I am not familiar with it as a substrate, but this is what @Littleredfootbigredheart figured out over in the UK, and now Steve, a trusted and very knowledgable friend, is saying the same thing. I don't know what the deal is with pine bark.

 

[Tom]

I thought pine is toxic to torts...

Pine shavings that are not kiln dried can emit strong fumes. Kiln dried shavings do not, but they are still not safe or suitable as tortoise substrate for the reasons I listed above in post #2.

I don't have knowledge of, or experience with, pine bark as a tortoise substrate, but Steve does.

 

[turtlesteve]

Why wouldn't pine bark and pine shavings be the same when it comes to toxins? They come from the same tree, just different parts.

I do not actually know if pine shavings are toxic. I have seen/heard it before though. They are indeed very fragrant / smelly due to the sap in them, and I also know I will get a headache if I spend a lot of time sawing / sanding fresh pine, so I'll err on the side of caution. The other big issue is that pine shavings will mold and the bark usually won't.

I don't think the bark has near as much sap and usually just smells earthy. What I think is going on, is the supply chain is not efficient - the bark gets stripped off and sits around in giant piles at a sawmill somewhere, then it eventually gets shipped to a company that packs it into bags and it goes into the distribution system for Lowes or Home Depot, and sits in their warehouse for who knows how long. By the time I buy it, all those smelly volatile chemicals from the pine sap have evaporated and it smells like dirt. If I ever bought a bag and it smelled really strong, I'd probably dump it in a pile on my driveway and let it sit for a couple months before I used it.

In general most wood mulch will mold, with cypress and cedar being exceptions - but cedar is known to have some toxins in it is also a very strong irritant. I know hardwood mulch will mold very quickly (tried that...)

Tom, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Steve P.

 

[wellington]

Pine shavings that are not kiln dried can emit strong fumes. Kiln dried shavings do not, but they are still not safe or suitable as tortoise substrate for the reasons I listed above in post #2.

I don't have knowledge of, or experience with, pine bark as a tortoise substrate, but Steve does.

Your post #2 to me reads like you do not recommend using the shavings.

 

[wellington]

Fair question. I think it is because of how they are processed. Pine shavings do not emit toxic fumes because they are "kiln dried". But not all types and all brands are kiln dried, so some pine shavings would still be problematic. Does your average pet owner know the difference and even know that there is a difference.

As I said, I've never used pine bark and I am not familiar with it as a substrate, but this is what @Littleredfootbigredheart figured out over in the UK, and now Steve, a trusted and very knowledgable friend, is saying the same thing. I don't know what the deal is with pine bark.

Sorry, but one has no experience and one has many years.
From what I'm gathering, from what Steve has said, bark is safe as long as it's either kiln dried or does not smell like pine. Shavings could be safe if the smell also is not there or kiln dried, but will mold fairly fast.
To error on the safest side, use pine bark that no longer has the pine smell.

 

[wellington]

After checking my shavings for my chickens, it is pine shavings. Little to no smell and I haven't had it mold, but I don't keep it damp either. But the chickens do poop in one area of their shed and it has never molded from their poop.
This is the kind I use. Says absorbent and low dust.