Wild vs Pet

Tom

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completely disagree with having wild mammals as pets, but that's another argument...

Please, oh please start your own thread on this in the debatable section. We will all keep it civil and respectful, but I would love to hear why in your mind it is perfectly fine to keep wild reptiles as pets, but not pet mammals. What about birds? What is the difference between a turtle in a tank and a canary in a cage? Or a turtle in a terrarium? Or a fish in an aquarium? Or a ferret in a... Oh, you get the point.
 

FLINTUS

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Please, oh please start your own thread on this in the debatable section. We will all keep it civil and respectful, but I would love to hear why in your mind it is perfectly fine to keep wild reptiles as pets, but not pet mammals. What about birds? What is the difference between a turtle in a tank and a canary in a cage? Or a turtle in a terrarium? Or a fish in an aquarium? Or a ferret in a... Oh, you get the point.
Too off-topic for this forum, but as you said in your previous post about a 'lack of thought', there is a big difference in intelligence between reptiles and mammals. Not going to start that debate now though...
 

Tom

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Too off-topic for this forum, but as you said in your previous post about a 'lack of thought', there is a big difference in intelligence between reptiles and mammals. Not going to start that debate now though...

No no... We have an "Off Topic Debate" section for just this sort of thing. And again, I don't think we have any trolls hanging about at this time, so it could be an entertaining, respectful and insightful conversation where many people, including myself, could learn many things.

I'll respect your decision to decline, but I would love to get further into this in the appropriate area of the forum.
 

WithLisa

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Do the vast majority of pet tortoises in Austria die in their first few years? I was not aware of such a problem. Most of the ones here survive.
Not only in Austria, but also in Germany and I guess in other European countries too.
In the past it was very common to buy mediterranean tortoises for children, they were kept in little boxes without UV and fed with fruits and dog food. Of course they died soon, but it didn't really matter since they were very cheap.
Nearly everybody I know has had a tortoise once, but not a single one of them has survived.

It has gotten better in the last few years, but still many people buy tortoises without any knowledge and keep them like they did in the past, especially older people or parents who only buy them as a toy for their children. I believe it still happens quite often, but who knows.
I only know that most tortoises I see in animal shelters or at sites like craigslist are suffering from rachitis. It's rare to see a healthy adult pet tortoise, even in commercials and advertisements of pet shops,... they only show rachitic tortoises, maybe people don't even know how a healthy shell looks like? :confused:
 

FLINTUS

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No no... We have an "Off Topic Debate" section for just this sort of thing. And again, I don't think we have any trolls hanging about at this time, so it could be an entertaining, respectful and insightful conversation where many people, including myself, could learn many things.

I'll respect your decision to decline, but I would love to get further into this in the appropriate area of the forum.
These topics generally don't end well, I know you work with animals in the entertainment business, which again I have an opinion on for non-domesticated species, but I, in general-there are exceptions-disagree with mammals being in captivity, except in a few cases. I'm sure you provide your best for them, but I just don't usually like it-if you want a specific example, dolphins in enclosed aquariums. Probably a slightly British vs American attitude here as well. I suspect more people on TFO would agree with you, than on, let's say Shelled Warriors, as in the UK we banned a lot of this stuff after the disastrous time animals had during the colonial ages, and therefore that attitude is still there. If you want to start a thread I'll PM you about it, but as I said, these threads generally end up in problems...
 

Tom

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...I see in animal shelters or at sites like craigslist are suffering from rachitis. It's rare to see a healthy adult pet tortoise, even in commercials and advertisements of pet shops,... they only show rachitic tortoises, maybe people don't even know how a healthy shell looks like? :confused:


Forgive me. I'm not familiar with the terms "rachitis" or "rachitic". Can you explain what you mean by that. Is that what we call pyramiding over here?

We certainly have our share of ignorant people doing thoughtless things over here too, but I find that to be in the minority over here, thankfully. For every crazy craigslist ad I can think of many more examples of people who take excellent care of their tortoises.

I hope things continue to improve over there.
 

Tom

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These topics generally don't end well, I know you work with animals in the entertainment business, which again I have an opinion on for non-domesticated species, but I, in general-there are exceptions-disagree with mammals being in captivity, except in a few cases. I'm sure you provide your best for them, but I just don't usually like it-if you want a specific example, dolphins in enclosed aquariums. Probably a slightly British vs American attitude here as well. I suspect more people on TFO would agree with you, than on, let's say Shelled Warriors, as in the UK we banned a lot of this stuff after the disastrous time animals had during the colonial ages, and therefore that attitude is still there. If you want to start a thread I'll PM you about it, but as I said, these threads generally end up in problems...

Thank you for explaining further, and I will respect your desire to not engage on this topic.
 

WithLisa

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Forgive me. I'm not familiar with the terms "rachitis" or "rachitic". Can you explain what you mean by that. Is that what we call pyramiding over here?
I'm sorry, it's called "Rachitis" in German and according to my dictionary it's the same in English... :oops: I mean MBD caused by lack of UV.
Pyramiding is another common problem, but not as harmful as MBD.
 

HLogic

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Rachitis = Rickets (Vit D deficiency)

Web search will set you free!
 

Tom

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I'm sorry, it's called "Rachitis" in German and according to my dictionary it's the same in English... :oops: I mean MBD caused by lack of UV.
Pyramiding is another common problem, but not as harmful as MBD.

No problem. Thank you for educating me. :)

We do see a small number of MBD cases over here, and its horrid when we do, but luckily the weather is nice enough in most places over here that most tortoises get to be outside and getting some real UV for at least part of the year. For example it is 29 C outside here right now and most of my tortoises are out grazing on weeds in the sun.
 

Turtlepete

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Please, oh please start your own thread on this in the debatable section. We will all keep it civil and respectful, but I would love to hear why in your mind it is perfectly fine to keep wild reptiles as pets, but not pet mammals. What about birds? What is the difference between a turtle in a tank and a canary in a cage? Or a turtle in a terrarium? Or a fish in an aquarium? Or a ferret in a... Oh, you get the point.

Would love that answered myself. The ignorance in being "okay" with ones own hobby of keeping a wild animal, but opposed to that of another…..Driving wedges between the hobbies is how legislation is furthered, and every ban we are "okay" with guarantees another that we are not.

I do believe that my tortoises can be "happy". I think their happiness is different then mine, however. I see a tortoise sprawled out, all limbs out, obviously feeling completely secure to expose so much of itself, in the sun, head swaying side to side, in a perfect climate, having just finished a good meal that meets it's dietary needs, followed by a comfortable soak….I feel that tortoise is "happy" in that it's living an easy life and fully provided for, to the point that it feels completely secure and "happy" in it's environment. Do I believe they engage in a higher level of reasoning as mammals might, that might further define "happiness"? No. I don't believe they experience anxiety, like we do. I can bet they don't spend time stressing about the future like we humans so often waste our time with. They DO however get stressed; we see this a lot. If they can be stressed by an environment, why can't they be "happy" with one? I have a hard time believing that an animal's health being negatively affected by this stress, as we often see (lowered immunity, going off food) is any sort of "evolutionary advantage" (if you believe in evolution). They get stressed to the point of damaging themselves….So is it such a stretch to believe they can be happy?
Somethin' to think about. And in the end, I REALLY like to tell people, whether it's true or not, that their cold-blooded reptiles can feel happiness and sadness. Why? Because anthropomorphism makes keepers feel more obligated to properly care for their pets, and more likely to give them proper care, or feel remorse for not providing for them properly.

Hopefully I explained that in a sensible manner. Having a hard time forming coherent thoughts and putting them into words at the moment :rolleyes:
 
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Tom

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Would love that answered myself. The ignorance in being "okay" with ones own hobby of keeping a wild animal, but opposed to that of another…..Driving wedges between the hobbies is how legislation is furthered, and every ban we are "okay" with guarantees another that we are not.

Jeez. How old are you? This is spoken like its from the mouth of a 1000 year old wise man. Brilliantly worded. Have you been taking lessons from Yvonne?
 

Tom

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I do believe that my tortoises can be "happy". I think their happiness is different then mine, however. I see a tortoise sprawled out, all limbs out, obviously feeling completely secure to expose so much of itself, in the sun, head swaying side to side, in a perfect climate, having just finished a good meal that meets it's dietary needs, followed by a comfortable soak….I feel that tortoise is "happy" in that it's living an easy life and fully provided for, to the point that it feels completely secure and "happy" in it's environment. Do I believe they engage in a higher level of reasoning as mammals might, that might further define "happiness"? No. I don't believe they experience anxiety, like we do. I can bet they don't spend time stressing about the future like we humans so often waste our time with. They DO however get stressed; we see this a lot. If they can be stressed by an environment, why can't they be "happy" with one? I have a hard time believing that an animal's health being negatively affected by this stress, as we often see (lowered immunity, going off food) is any sort of "evolutionary advantage" (if you believe in evolution). They get stressed to the point of damaging themselves….So is it such a stretch to believe they can be happy?
Somethin' to think about. And in the end, I REALLY like to tell people, whether it's true or not, that their cold-blooded reptiles can feel happiness and sadness. Why? Because anthropomorphism makes keepers feel more obligated to properly care for their pets, and more likely to give them proper care, or feel remorse for not providing for them properly.

Okay. Using YOUR definition of happiness for a reptile, I'm in agreement. About anthropomorphism possibly having a positive consequence in your context, I am in agreement with that too.
 

Turtlepete

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Jeez. How old are you? This is spoken like its from the mouth of a 1000 year old wise man. Brilliantly worded. Have you been taking lessons from Yvonne?

Hardly. Rather a blissfully ignorant 17-year old college student who writes the way they do in hopes of being taken somewhat seriously. ;)
 

Dizisdalife

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Hardly. Rather a blissfully ignorant 17-year old college student who writes the way they do in hopes of being taken somewhat seriously. ;)
Keep writing like that and you will definitely be taken seriously. That was very well written.
 

smarch

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I do believe that my tortoises can be "happy". I think their happiness is different then mine, however. I see a tortoise sprawled out, all limbs out, obviously feeling completely secure to expose so much of itself, in the sun, head swaying side to side, in a perfect climate, having just finished a good meal that meets it's dietary needs, followed by a comfortable soak….I feel that tortoise is "happy" in that it's living an easy life and fully provided for, to the point that it feels completely secure and "happy" in it's environment. Do I believe they engage in a higher level of reasoning as mammals might, that might further define "happiness"? No. I don't believe they experience anxiety, like we do. I can bet they don't spend time stressing about the future like we humans so often waste our time with. They DO however get stressed; we see this a lot. If they can be stressed by an environment, why can't they be "happy" with one? I have a hard time believing that an animal's health being negatively affected by this stress, as we often see (lowered immunity, going off food) is any sort of "evolutionary advantage" (if you believe in evolution). They get stressed to the point of damaging themselves….So is it such a stretch to believe they can be happy?
Somethin' to think about. And in the end, I REALLY like to tell people, whether it's true or not, that their cold-blooded reptiles can feel happiness and sadness. Why? Because anthropomorphism makes keepers feel more obligated to properly care for their pets, and more likely to give them proper care, or feel remorse for not providing for them properly.
That hit the nail right on the head, wow, you have a real talent for writing!
I knew tortoises don't experience "happy" like we do, but I do believe its possible. You worded that happiness well. I think there are things we see our tortoises do that a tortoise in the wild probably would not do. I mean my franklin sleeps sprawled out head out legs everywhere, a bunch of other tortoises I follow on instagram call it "pinwheeling" Would a tortoise really just walk and then plop down in the middle of nowhere in the wild and sleep all stretched out? I mean I cant say I've just waltzed past a wild tortoise but why would they sleep like that? They'd be eaten, that's why they burrow... although mine definitely sleeps sprawled out more often than burrowing in for the night. Basking all exposed is one thing, I see turtles in my lake all the time basking on a log, but that's alert and awake. Even with cats and dogs, they're not going to sprawl out and sleep unless they feel at least secure. I've seen my cat go from being a stay sleeping inside upright and any practically at the ready to run or fight, to now being safe inside practically sleeping on his back twisted like a pretzel. And Nank, coming from the petstore, but I guess that probably goes for any tort settling into a new home, he burrowed practically to china in his tank every night to sleep... and now he'll sprawl out anywhere he stops and sleep, and if I walk by at night (not uncommon since I have stomach issues and wake up in the middle of the night and need to sit up and much on tums or sip some water) he'll just look up, half glare at me then put his head right back to sleep (I know its not "glaring" mostly just looking: I'm highly guilty of the applying human emotions thing)
And I think for a reptile maybe security is happiness, always having food, always having the temperatures needed, always access to water, even though they may not know it; protection from predators. Seems like captive reptiles are "living the dream" when people give them all their requirements.
 

ascott

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These topics generally don't end well, I know you work with animals in the entertainment business, which again I have an opinion on for non-domesticated species, but I, in general-there are exceptions-disagree with mammals being in captivity, except in a few cases. I'm sure you provide your best for them, but I just don't usually like it-if you want a specific example, dolphins in enclosed aquariums. Probably a slightly British vs American attitude here as well. I suspect more people on TFO would agree with you, than on, let's say Shelled Warriors, as in the UK we banned a lot of this stuff after the disastrous time animals had during the colonial ages, and therefore that attitude is still there. If you want to start a thread I'll PM you about it, but as I said, these threads generally end up in problems...


I am laughing a little aloud....I have a couple people on "ignore" status and when I read this posting I am certain that you are hearing crap from one of them...as for the British vs American attitude, I am an American (4 th generation Irish to be exact) and the thought of a Dolphin or Whale imprisoned in a fish bowl churns my gut..... animals in these situations in current day don't have it any better than those in days gone past...regardless of all of the human fluff we try to dish out....and if you are indeed in a conversation with the member I believe you are....take my word for it--there are many here who find the garbage spewed a bit boorish, contrary to what wares are peddled from rickety old wagons....there are many here that agree with you...anyways, I am off now---lol...now get ready for the "lashings" tossed my way after my comments--I love the "ignore" button *maniacal laughter inserted here*....just keep focused on the forum and the purpose it was set up for---to discuss and help one another by ALL members offering up their experiences and information....toodles and peace out :p
 

Gillian M

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I don't really know. What I do know, is however I want to think of them, is what I will think. What ever makes you feel good about it, then think it. If they can train Dolphins, monkeys, etc, why not tortoises.
I do see your point, but I've have my Greek tort for almost four years and tried to train it not to entre one of the rooms of the flat, and no way... it is the one and only room that my tort wants to entre! "Forbidden fruit is the sweetest," is it not. I personally don't believe that torts can be trained like other pets/animals-no offence to you Wellington. Please do not take this personal, ok? Thank you.
 

Gillian M

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You and I will get along disagreeing with one another on this :)....I believe an animal learns to "survive" in any given situation....and that does not equate to accepting the situation.....
I agree with that Ascott. Adapting to an environment does not mean a human being or an annimal likes it.

For that matter, I live in a flat with my Greek tort. When it's nice and sunny I take it out for "a walk." Nobody can imagine how much it enjoys it out there in the wild. This confirms what you said, and of course there is an exception to each and every rule.
 
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